If you go back to the day Palmer was drafted, he was joining a 2 and 14 franchise. A franchise that had already two first round bust at QB in 14 years. I really don't know how anyone can say realistically they thought getting him would mean playoff wins. At that point with the Bengals, nobody would have a clue how they would do. So how has he been a disappointment? He took this team to the playoffs twice, and should have been three years if not for special teams in 2006. We have no clue if he would have won a playoff game in 2005, thats just bad luck. Last year we made the playoffs again, and yes he didn't do that great in that game at all. However he came to the Bengals when they were 2 and 14, and has them two division championships, pro bowls, and pro bowl MVP. From where they were when he took over to now, is a huge difference. So how is that a disappointment?

 

I will admit this year is a big year for Carson though. It is time now for him to get the team even further, and actually make a run in the playoffs. He has the weapons to do it this year, so it is time for him to get it done. If they don't make a run in the playoffs, then I will be right along with everyone else and say that he was disappointing.

 

If you draft a QB #1 and you don't think he can/will lead you to playoff wins you're pathetic or wasting a draft pick IMO. At #1 overall you're looking for a Franchise guy, an All- Pro, a possible Hall of Famer. As sad as the Rams have been they probably felt Bradford is a guy that could potentially lead them to a Super Bowl eventually.

If you draft a QB #1 and you don't think he can/will lead you to playoff wins you're pathetic or wasting a draft pick IMO. At #1 overall you're looking for a Franchise guy, an All- Pro, a possible Hall of Famer. As sad as the Rams have been they probably felt Bradford is a guy that could potentially lead them to a Super Bowl eventually.

 

I would agree with that but the big thing is Mike Brown has been so terrible at running a franchise for so long that it hurts Palmer. He's getting credit nationally for going for it this year by bringing in a 37 year old receiver with his own reality show on VH1 and another receiver who's knee is so bad he's only practiced once. Their offense is painfully predictable and they kept the coordinator. Palmer has had to be very good just to lead them to two division wins and the brink of another playoff appearance. He didn't get drafted into a good situation. I know a lot of number 1 overall picks are in bad situations but Palmer's was worse than all of the others IMO.

I would agree with that but the big thing is Mike Brown has been so terrible at running a franchise for so long that it hurts Palmer. He's getting credit nationally for going for it this year by bringing in a 37 year old receiver with his own reality show on VH1 and another receiver who's knee is so bad he's only practiced once. Their offense is painfully predictable and they kept the coordinator. Palmer has had to be very good just to lead them to two division wins and the brink of another playoff appearance. He didn't get drafted into a good situation. I know a lot of number 1 overall picks are in bad situations but Palmer's was worse than all of the others IMO.

 

Worse than David Carr or Tim Couch going to expansion teams with no offensive line so they got killed in the process of trying to learn how to play the game? Worse than JaMarcus Russell going to the Raiders? How about the multitude of HOF WRs Alex Smith has had to throw to in his career? Stafford sure got put on a winning team in Detroit didn't he?

 

All #1 picks are put into bad situations. The Colts were pretty poor when Manning got there, I think they only won 3 games his first year. You cannot cry about Palmer's situation in being on the Bengals when other QB's have had to go to places like the Raiders, St. Louis or Detroit.

Worse than David Carr or Tim Couch going to expansion teams with no offensive line so they got killed in the process of trying to learn how to play the game? Worse than JaMarcus Russell going to the Raiders? How about the multitude of HOF WRs Alex Smith has had to throw to in his career? Stafford sure got put on a winning team in Detroit didn't he?

 

All #1 picks are put into bad situations. The Colts were pretty poor when Manning got there, I think they only won 3 games his first year. You cannot cry about Palmer's situation in being on the Bengals when other QB's have had to go to places like the Raiders, St. Louis or Detroit.

 

The Raiders and St. Louis have played in a Super Bowl more recently than the Bengals. Al Davis may be dead but he wants to win. Mike Brown only made a change to look like he wants to win b/c his fans quit buying tickets and it was a newer stadium. He ran out of reasons. They have the smallest scouting department in the league. If you're going to go the "small market" route which he likes to use you should have a big enough scouting department for making up for your own idiotic decisions. They signed a guy to a huge contract that isn't able to practice. He's a moron. Palmer's owner is the worst in the NFL. That's the situation I was talking about. David Carr, Tim Couch, and Russell are bad. That happens. Palmer was good. Manning is on another level, but he also has an owner smart enough to hire football guys to help make decisions. Brown doesn't know how to win and he thinks he does.

The Raiders and St. Louis have played in a Super Bowl more recently than the Bengals. Al Davis may be dead but he wants to win. Mike Brown only made a change to look like he wants to win b/c his fans quit buying tickets and it was a newer stadium. He ran out of reasons. They have the smallest scouting department in the league. If you're going to go the "small market" route which he likes to use you should have a big enough scouting department for making up for your own idiotic decisions. They signed a guy to a huge contract that isn't able to practice. He's a moron. Palmer's owner is the worst in the NFL. That's the situation I was talking about. David Carr, Tim Couch, and Russell are bad. That happens. Palmer was good. Manning is on another level, but he also has an owner smart enough to hire football guys to help make decisions. Brown doesn't know how to win and he thinks he does.

 

Brown worse than Al Davis? You have to be kidding. Davis hires horrible coaches that he doesn't even give a chance, he drafts horribly, and has no clue about how to build a winning football team yet still demands 100% control of football ops. The Rams had a great run but they're far from being a good franchise. I don't know how they would be much better than the Bengals.

 

How would we know anything about David Carr or Tim Couch? Both were sacked so much early in their careers (Carr in record setting fashion) that they never had a chance to learn the NFL game and improve. Their situations were infinitely worse than Palmer's no matter how you want to spin it. The Bengals scouting department which is suppose to be terrible has produced some pretty good players over the years. Sure they've missed on some big ones, but everyone does it's just part of the game.

Brown worse than Al Davis? You have to be kidding. Davis hires horrible coaches that he doesn't even give a chance, he drafts horribly, and has no clue about how to build a winning football team yet still demands 100% control of football ops. The Rams had a great run but they're far from being a good franchise. I don't know how they would be much better than the Bengals.

 

How would we know anything about David Carr or Tim Couch? Both were sacked so much early in their careers (Carr in record setting fashion) that they never had a chance to learn the NFL game and improve. Their situations were infinitely worse than Palmer's no matter how you want to spin it. The Bengals scouting department which is suppose to be terrible has produced some pretty good players over the years. Sure they've missed on some big ones, but everyone does it's just part of the game.

 

From Wiki: Al Davis

 

With Davis in control, the Raiders became one of the most successful teams in all of professional sports. From 1967 to 1985 the team won 13 division championships, one AFL championship (1967), three Super Bowls (XI, XV, and XVIII) and made 15 playoff appearances. Though the Raiders' fortunes have waned in recent years, having gone 24–72 from 2003 to 2008, they are one of two teams to play in the Super Bowl in four different decades, with the other being the Pittsburgh Steelers. Along with appearing in five Super Bowls, the Raiders have also played in their Conference/League Championship Game in every decade since their inception

 

 

Mike Brown:

 

Brown employs a small scouting staff. A 2008 comparison between the Bengals' scouting department and five AFC teams with a .540+ winning percentage since 1991 showed the winning teams employing five or more scouts whereas the Bengals employed only one

 

Under Mike Brown's ownership (1991-present), the Bengals have a winning percentage of 111–192–1 (.367) in regular season play and 0–2 in the playoffs

 

Davis may be crazy, but he has built winners in the past. Brown, not so much.

From Wiki: Al Davis

 

With Davis in control, the Raiders became one of the most successful teams in all of professional sports. From 1967 to 1985 the team won 13 division championships, one AFL championship (1967), three Super Bowls (XI, XV, and XVIII) and made 15 playoff appearances. Though the Raiders' fortunes have waned in recent years, having gone 24–72 from 2003 to 2008, they are one of two teams to play in the Super Bowl in four different decades, with the other being the Pittsburgh Steelers. Along with appearing in five Super Bowls, the Raiders have also played in their Conference/League Championship Game in every decade since their inception

 

 

Mike Brown:

 

Brown employs a small scouting staff. A 2008 comparison between the Bengals' scouting department and five AFC teams with a .540+ winning percentage since 1991 showed the winning teams employing five or more scouts whereas the Bengals employed only one

 

Under Mike Brown's ownership (1991-present), the Bengals have a winning percentage of 111–192–1 (.367) in regular season play and 0–2 in the playoffs

 

Davis may be crazy, but he has built winners in the past. Brown, not so much.

 

Okay comparing the old Al Davis to the current version of the man is not even fair. His glory days are long gone. His Super Bowl team a few years ago seems more of a product of Jon Gruden to me.

Okay comparing the old Al Davis to the current version of the man is not even fair. His glory days are long gone. His Super Bowl team a few years ago seems more of a product of Jon Gruden to me.

 

Who hired Gruden? I thought he hired horrible coaches and din't give them a chance? The one thing similar for Brown and Davis right now is they think they can build football teams that can win a title and haven't had recent success at it. The HUGE difference is Davis has done it before. Brown never has.

Okay so Gruden was one great hire followed by a bunch of guys who did very little. I don't count Callihan's Super Bowl run because that was Gruden's team IMO.

 

Comparing the current Al Davis to the Old One makes about as much sense as if Havlicek and Bill Russell came out of retirement and people said they were the missing pieces for the current Celtics to win the title.

If you draft a QB #1 and you don't think he can/will lead you to playoff wins you're pathetic or wasting a draft pick IMO. At #1 overall you're looking for a Franchise guy, an All- Pro, a possible Hall of Famer. As sad as the Rams have been they probably felt Bradford is a guy that could potentially lead them to a Super Bowl eventually.

 

Worse than David Carr or Tim Couch going to expansion teams with no offensive line so they got killed in the process of trying to learn how to play the game? Worse than JaMarcus Russell going to the Raiders? How about the multitude of HOF WRs Alex Smith has had to throw to in his career? Stafford sure got put on a winning team in Detroit didn't he?

 

All #1 picks are put into bad situations. The Colts were pretty poor when Manning got there, I think they only won 3 games his first year. You cannot cry about Palmer's situation in being on the Bengals when other QB's have had to go to places like the Raiders, St. Louis or Detroit.

 

You go against your own argument here some. Not to mention in your first thing I bolded, you talk about how teams think of their guys leading them to the Super Bowl eventually. I didn't realize Palmers career was over? Palmer took over a franchise at the time that is well known to have been the worst ran organization in football that time. Yet you act like since he has not won a playoff game or a Super Bowl that he has been a disappointment? He has basicallly been the starting QB for the Bengals for 5 years. 2008 doesn't count since he didn't play but three games. So he has had 5 years of being a starter after joining the worst franchise in football at the time. Yet he has led them to two division titles, and playoffs twice. He possibly could have won a few playoffs games in 2005 but we will never know. So I don't see how someone could call him a disappointment so far. I mean if you ask people on the day they drafted Palmer if they would be happy with winning the division twice and making the playoffs in the first 5 years of him being a starter, they would have taken it and been thrilled with it. Now though is the time for him to start getting the franchise even further, and if he fails to do that. Then you could start saying its been a disappointment.

You go against your own argument here some. Not to mention in your first thing I bolded, you talk about how teams think of their guys leading them to the Super Bowl eventually. I didn't realize Palmers career was over? Palmer took over a franchise at the time that is well known to have been the worst ran organization in football that time. Yet you act like since he has not won a playoff game or a Super Bowl that he has been a disappointment? He has basicallly been the starting QB for the Bengals for 5 years. 2008 doesn't count since he didn't play but three games. So he has had 5 years of being a starter after joining the worst franchise in football at the time. Yet he has led them to two division titles, and playoffs twice. He possibly could have won a few playoffs games in 2005 but we will never know. So I don't see how someone could call him a disappointment so far. I mean if you ask people on the day they drafted Palmer if they would be happy with winning the division twice and making the playoffs in the first 5 years of him being a starter, they would have taken it and been thrilled with it. Now though is the time for him to start getting the franchise even further, and if he fails to do that. Then you could start saying its been a disappointment.

 

I went against my own argument? How so? Bad teams draft #1. Teams taking a QB at #1 should feel that they are drafting a legit QB and potential future star. Real star QB's win or get to Super Bowls or atleast make deep runs in the playoffs. It's cut and dry. Do you think Lions or Raiders fans don't have dreams that their teams could one day win the Super Bowl?

 

Palmer got drafted in 2003 and has yet to win a playoff game. In that time he's thrown to two Pro Bowl WRs and had 2 Pro Bowl RBs to hand off to. Not getting it done is not getting it done, please stop with the excuses.

You guys are really still fighting about this. :lol:

You guys are really still fighting about this. :lol:

 

You ought to know I can go on for days. I'm legitimately enjoying this one though. I can tell it's getting under Carso.. I mean FC's skin :lol:.

Okay so Gruden was one great hire followed by a bunch of guys who did very little. I don't count Callihan's Super Bowl run because that was Gruden's team IMO.

 

Comparing the current Al Davis to the Old One makes about as much sense as if Havlicek and Bill Russell came out of retirement and people said they were the missing pieces for the current Celtics to win the title.

 

I don't care what you call anything. One owner has a history of winning and wanting to win. One owner has a history of being inept. There's really no disputing that. Before Palmer was drafted they had other really high picks at the QB position since Mike Brown took over yet none of them made the playoffs. The Bengals were and to some still are the biggest joke of an organization in the history of the NFL. Al Davis has had a bad few years. Not a bad lifetime.

I don't care what you call anything. One owner has a history of winning and wanting to win. One owner has a history of being inept. There's really no disputing that. Before Palmer was drafted they had other really high picks at the QB position since Mike Brown took over yet none of them made the playoffs. The Bengals were and to some still are the biggest joke of an organization in the history of the NFL. Al Davis has had a bad few years. Not a bad lifetime.

 

Al Davis is done. Brown seems to be much better than he has been in the past. Give credit where credit is due.