October 7, 200916 yr They have to get virtually all of the in-state talent and hope to get lucky on kids who are not priorities at the other schools you referred to. They will have a hard time getting top players in Ohio because it is Big 10 country plus UC is having a lot of success as well. They will have to continue trying to get players from areas such as Memphis and LaGrange in the SEC states. I honestly think that UK will always have a difficult time getting over the hump without more SEC type talent within the state to choose from.
October 7, 200916 yr Author Tough question here, and I preface it with the fact that I like the guy a lot and have nothing but good things to say from my dealings with him: Is UK "settling" for its current level by going with Joker as the man for the future? Could an expensive superstar coach come in and bust Kentucky through its current ceiling and make the Wildcats a player when the best of the best recruits are deciding where to go?
October 7, 200916 yr Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't help but wonder why they came here instead of going somewhere bigger? I have a hard time believing those guys turned down offers to go to Florida or Texas to come here. Which means that they were leftovers that the big-name programs didn't want or need. Ask yourself honestly: How often does any top-flite player, if given the option of going to a traditional football powerhouse or coming to UK, choose UK? Not saying it never happens, but obviously it's not enough to make UK a consistent threat to the SEC big boys. Nobody knows how these guys will turn out in college. But, a consensus 4-star QB from a football state like Texas, and a borderline 4-star guy who won Mr. Football in Indiana is a pretty strong haul for UK at the QB position...and, both were outside of the friendly borders of the bluegrass. Recent recruiting.... Florida 2009 - Jordan Reed, QB (New London, CT) - 4 Star 2007 - Cameron Newton, QB (Atlanta, GA) - 5 Star 2007 - John Brantley, QB (Ocala, FL) - 4 Star Tebow entrenched as starter. LSU 2009 - Russell Shephard, QB (Houston, TX) - 5 Star 2008 - Jordan Jefferson, QB (Destrehan, LA) - 4 Star 2007 - Jarrett Lee, QB (Brenham, TX) - 4 Star Alabama 2009 - AJ McCarron, QB (Mobile, AL) - 4 Star 2008 - Star Jackson, QB (Lake Worth, FL) - 4 Star In addition, they had McElroy as an experienced upper classmen ready to start. Oklahoma 2008 - Landry Jones, QB (Artesia, NM) - 4 Star 2007 - Keith Nichol, QB (Lowell, MI) - 4 Star Bradford entrenched as starter. Texas 2009 - Garrett Gilbert, QB (Austin, TX) - 5 Star Colt McCoy entrenched as starter. At those other schools, they had no chance to play early, and they're likely going to be on the bench behind highly touted guys who are older and more experienced than them. At UK, you're competing with Hartline, Fidler and Matt Lentz (is he still on the roster?). Those guys had an opportunity to get playing time early for an SEC team that has won three straight bowl games. Even if they don't play immediately, there's a good chance, IMO, that one of those two guys will be UK's starting QB when the 2010 season kicks off. Don't underestimate the appeal that has. Additionally, there are so many good high school football players these days, there's no way the recruiting gurus can watch them all enough to get it right all the time. Some are better than expected and some are worse. The Florida's and Texas's and LSU's of the world do generally get their picks. But, there's only so many QB's they can take, and once they get a couple of good ones, it lowers their ability to get more. That leaves some high quality guys on UK's radar. UK just has to keep putting together winning seasons. Keep identifying talent among the lesser known recruits and continue to develop the guys you do get. Playing at UK will continue to grow more attractive if they do those things. The fact that they landed two quality recruits at QB outside of the state shows that the recruiting is getting better and that the potential is there. But, if you just want us to admit that UK is behind the eight ball when it comes to recruiting and competing against the traditional national powers that reside in the SEC, so be it. However, I anxiously await the thread belittling UK fans for using the SEC as an excuse for their current status as a football program.:thumb:
October 7, 200916 yr This thread is really just pointing out the obvious. This is why UK has never and will never become a football powerhouse in the SEC. There is no solution to the question. We have to do the best we can with what we have and hope it is good enough to compete. Is it really any secret that the top programs year in college football are in locations of the country that produce elite talent every year? Think about it... Florida, Texas, USC, Ohio St... all have loads and loads of talent to pick from. The state of Florida has so much talent that USF became a contender in the Big East in no time just by taking the left overs. Heck, they went 8-3 in their second year of existence. Kentucky could put an emphasis on in state talent. You know honestly it might not be a bad idea for Brooks to start doing a free clinic for high school coaches every summer. I mean if you can help develop state coaches then maybe and this is a big maybe within the next generation or two Kentucky may start produce more in state talent. It's a long shot, but what do you have to loose each summer as a coaching staff besides a couple of days of giving your time to help high schools.
October 7, 200916 yr Nobody knows how these guys will turn out in college. But, a consensus 4-star QB from a football state like Texas, and a borderline 4-star guy who won Mr. Football in Indiana is a pretty strong haul for UK at the QB position...and, both were outside of the friendly borders of the bluegrass. Recent recruiting.... Florida 2009 - Jordan Reed, QB (New London, CT) - 4 Star 2007 - Cameron Newton, QB (Atlanta, GA) - 5 Star 2007 - John Brantley, QB (Ocala, FL) - 4 Star Tebow entrenched as starter. LSU 2009 - Russell Shephard, QB (Houston, TX) - 5 Star 2008 - Jordan Jefferson, QB (Destrehan, LA) - 4 Star 2007 - Jarrett Lee, QB (Brenham, TX) - 4 Star Alabama 2009 - AJ McCarron, QB (Mobile, AL) - 4 Star 2008 - Star Jackson, QB (Lake Worth, FL) - 4 Star In addition, they had McElroy as an experienced upper classmen ready to start. Oklahoma 2008 - Landry Jones, QB (Artesia, NM) - 4 Star 2007 - Keith Nichol, QB (Lowell, MI) - 4 Star Bradford entrenched as starter. Texas 2009 - Garrett Gilbert, QB (Austin, TX) - 5 Star Colt McCoy entrenched as starter. At those other schools, they had no chance to play early, and they're likely going to be on the bench behind highly touted guys who are older and more experienced than them. At UK, you're competing with Hartline, Fidler and Matt Lentz (is he still on the roster?). Those guys had an opportunity to get playing time early for an SEC team that has won three straight bowl games. Even if they don't play immediately, there's a good chance, IMO, that one of those two guys will be UK's starting QB when the 2010 season kicks off. Don't underestimate the appeal that has. Additionally, there are so many good high school football players these days, there's no way the recruiting gurus can watch them all enough to get it right all the time. Some are better than expected and some are worse. The Florida's and Texas's and LSU's of the world do generally get their picks. But, there's only so many QB's they can take, and once they get a couple of good ones, it lowers their ability to get more. That leaves some high quality guys on UK's radar. UK just has to keep putting together winning seasons. Keep identifying talent among the lesser known recruits and continue to develop the guys you do get. Playing at UK will continue to grow more attractive if they do those things. The fact that they landed two quality recruits at QB outside of the state shows that the recruiting is getting better and that the potential is there. But, if you just want us to admit that UK is behind the eight ball when it comes to recruiting and competing against the traditional national powers that reside in the SEC, so be it. However, I anxiously await the thread belittling UK fans for using the SEC as an excuse for their current status as a football program.:thumb: :sssh: :thumb:
October 7, 200916 yr Author Nobody knows how these guys will turn out in college. But, a consensus 4-star QB from a football state like Texas, and a borderline 4-star guy who won Mr. Football in Indiana is a pretty strong haul for UK at the QB position...and, both were outside of the friendly borders of the bluegrass. Recent recruiting.... Florida 2009 - Jordan Reed, QB (New London, CT) - 4 Star 2007 - Cameron Newton, QB (Atlanta, GA) - 5 Star 2007 - John Brantley, QB (Ocala, FL) - 4 Star Tebow entrenched as starter. LSU 2009 - Russell Shephard, QB (Houston, TX) - 5 Star 2008 - Jordan Jefferson, QB (Destrehan, LA) - 4 Star 2007 - Jarrett Lee, QB (Brenham, TX) - 4 Star Alabama 2009 - AJ McCarron, QB (Mobile, AL) - 4 Star 2008 - Star Jackson, QB (Lake Worth, FL) - 4 Star In addition, they had McElroy as an experienced upper classmen ready to start. Oklahoma 2008 - Landry Jones, QB (Artesia, NM) - 4 Star 2007 - Keith Nichol, QB (Lowell, MI) - 4 Star Bradford entrenched as starter. Texas 2009 - Garrett Gilbert, QB (Austin, TX) - 5 Star Colt McCoy entrenched as starter. At those other schools, they had no chance to play early, and they're likely going to be on the bench behind highly touted guys who are older and more experienced than them. At UK, you're competing with Hartline, Fidler and Matt Lentz (is he still on the roster?). Those guys had an opportunity to get playing time early for an SEC team that has won three straight bowl games. Even if they don't play immediately, there's a good chance, IMO, that one of those two guys will be UK's starting QB when the 2010 season kicks off. Don't underestimate the appeal that has. Additionally, there are so many good high school football players these days, there's no way the recruiting gurus can watch them all enough to get it right all the time. Some are better than expected and some are worse. The Florida's and Texas's and LSU's of the world do generally get their picks. But, there's only so many QB's they can take, and once they get a couple of good ones, it lowers their ability to get more. That leaves some high quality guys on UK's radar. UK just has to keep putting together winning seasons. Keep identifying talent among the lesser known recruits and continue to develop the guys you do get. Playing at UK will continue to grow more attractive if they do those things. The fact that they landed two quality recruits at QB outside of the state shows that the recruiting is getting better and that the potential is there. But, if you just want us to admit that UK is behind the eight ball when it comes to recruiting and competing against the traditional national powers that reside in the SEC, so be it. However, I anxiously await the thread belittling UK fans for using the SEC as an excuse for their current status as a football program.:thumb: Not trying to get anyone to "admit" anything. My only motive is to pick people's brains here. Good info above. I'll ask this: Do you think Newton and Mossakowski came to UK under the impression they'd get a much quicker oppo at playing time than they would at a football factory -- as in, now? Is playing Hartline now increasing the likelihood one or both will seek a transfer?
October 7, 200916 yr My thoughts: 1. UK recruits about as well as they can. UK is not a spot where you're automatically on every kids list. They simply aren't going to get the best kids in most surrounding states. But, they do get kids who are fast and athletic enough for the SEC. Now maybe that doesn't show against UF or Bama, but those teams outclass the rest of the SEC as well. They usually mold those players into good players for the system. 2. Kentucky isn't a hotbed for recruiting. Ohio is a hotbed and is a neighbor, but as many have said UK isn't going to get many kids from that state that are Elite in talent level. I would suggest trying for more Thursday night games, those are great exposure for programs. 3. No team is built overnight, especially in the SEC. If UK is ever going to rise to the top of the conference, they are going to have to do it gradually. I'd say most HS kids couldn't pick Rich Brooks out of a line-up. UK just needs to keep improving and winning. Maybe 20 years from now, UK can be in the same light as some of the better programs but it's not going to happen relatively soon, if ever. 4. Once UK has a QB that can run the entire offense, the talent gap won't seem as huge. I think everyone is panicking over the last two games, but how many of us actually though UK should and would beat UF or Bama?
October 7, 200916 yr Control your home state. Don't be afraid to go to Florida/Texas/ Georgia/Bama lookin for kids. Do the Cats offer camps for 10/11 graders? Make it east for them to come. They need to play one of the Freshman the next home game and start him next year. Bama has played Freshman a lot during Saban years and don't you think kids see that.
October 7, 200916 yr One thing I've learned watching USF go from nothing to where they are now, is the necessity of depth. Especially in the offensive and defensive lines. The O-Line made the difference between the QB Brian Brohm in 2006 and the Brohm of 2007. That's huge advantage that the big boys have. Depth is everything. Speaking of Florida, those Smith and Petrino teams at UofL were built upon a base of Florida talent. Maybe not the QB, but the other skilled positions and especially the defense. More than 50% of the 06 Orange Bowl team had kids on it that called some city in Florida home. Petrino recruited Florida as well as any out of state coach ever has. There is no reason why Brooks or Phillips can't do this, too.
October 7, 200916 yr Not trying to get anyone to "admit" anything. My only motive is to pick people's brains here. Good info above. I'll ask this: Do you think Newton and Mossakowski came to UK under the impression they'd get a much quicker oppo at playing time than they would at a football factory -- as in, now? Is playing Hartline now increasing the likelihood one or both will seek a transfer? I think that one of the two will transfer after this season.
October 8, 200916 yr I'm asking honest questions here. Don't immediately get riled up, folks, just because it's me asking the questions. There is much hand-wringing about the QB situation. In Nets' wrap-up thread from the Alabama game, it was questioned when UK would stumble across a decent QB again. I'm of the opinion that the next time UK has a top-notch QB will be when Kentucky HS FB produces one. Why? Because where else can UK go to get one? What top-flite QB is going to come here (who doesn't already have ties to UK, whether that be as a fan or as the son of an alumnus) over a Florida or Alabama? It's part of the larger recruiting dilemma for UK, and why the recent bowl streak has fans feeling warm and fuzzy, but wondering why UK can't take the next step and make headway against the rest of the SEC. In most rankings of recent recruiting classes, UK has done better on a national scale than they historically do. Yet, even with better recruiting classes they still are ranked near the bottom of the SEC in recruiting. UK's area to recruit top-flite players, at any position, is extremely limited. They're walled-in, geographically, with Ohio St. and other Big 11 teams getting the best kids from the north, Notre Dame and ACC schools getting the best kids from the east coast, the Big 12 clubs to the west, and the SEC heavyweights getting the best kids in the south. All UK has to choose from are the gizzards and livers and necks of the chicken, if you'll pardon the term. Still tasty pieces, mind you, but you'd obviously rather have the breast of the chicken. So with only the leftover pieces that the other schools didn't want or need, it puts a premium on UK being able to identify overlooked kids and late-bloomers. They may get a few who are top-notch, but never the depth of talent needed to be able to withstand the SEC grind. How does UK address this dilemma? What can UK football do to attract a wealth of blue-chippers — to get them to come to Lex instead of Gainesville or Knoxville or Tuscaloosa? I've been hard on Rich Brooks in the past, and I have to admit that what he's been able to do during his tenure has been impressive, given the depths from which he's lifted the program. However, the past couple seasons have shown that he's reached his ceiling. What does Rich and Joker and Co. do in the future to bust through that ceiling, and remove the rest of the SEC's bootheels from UK's neck? Are they even capable of doing so, or is someone else with a higher-profile nationally the answer? How does UK bring in not just one or two top-flite guys per class, but a dozen or two (which is what it takes to compete for SEC crowns)? Kentucky HS ranks produce a few good players each year, but nowhere near enough to lift a program like UK to the top of the SEC heap. And please, I'm interested in rational, non-emotional discussion here, and that goes for UK fans as well as others such as myself, who aren't Big Blue fans. Thanks. It seems Net forgot about the 2 that UK got last year. Who is the KY high school qb that UK needs to have gotten in the past that they didn't? They got Woodson when he was considered one of the top qb prospects in the country. As to "they get the leftovers" thinking. So? Texas puts out great high school qbs every year year there are only , what, 5 big programs in the state for them to choose from? Where do you expect the rest to go? They've got enough talent that their "leftovers" are still darn good. We're tier 2 in arguably the top conference in the country. We get what we get and we roll with that. I'll take the 2 we got last year over most schools qb recruits in the SEC.
October 8, 200916 yr I think that one of the two will transfer after this season. Am I wrong with my assumption (assuming both are redshirted) that transferring after the season and sitting out next season would essentially just cost them a year of eligibility, since they are using their one redshirt this year? Maybe it's just me, but unless I just absolutely hated the situation... I don't know that I'd do something to cause me to sit back to back years. I'd probably stay where I could at least compete for the job, be that UK or elsewhere.
October 8, 200916 yr Author It seems Net forgot about the 2 that UK got last year. Who is the KY high school qb that UK needs to have gotten in the past that they didn't? They got Woodson when he was considered one of the top qb prospects in the country. Never said they didn't. As to "they get the leftovers" thinking. So? Texas puts out great high school qbs every year year there are only , what, 5 big programs in the state for them to choose from? Where do you expect the rest to go? They've got enough talent that their "leftovers" are still darn good. Maybe so, but it's like to old adage about the runt of the litter not being strong enough to get to anything but hind teat, where the smallest amount of milk comes out. There may indeed be some great players in the leftover category, but not enough to push UK into the top tier -- which is what it should be striving for (but doesn't appear to be). We're tier 2 in arguably the top conference in the country. We get what we get and we roll with that. I'll take the 2 we got last year over most schools qb recruits in the SEC. But what good does it do if neither one will ever see the field in a UK uniform? It appears you answered one of my later questions outside of my initial post -- that you're happy to settle for the status quo in UK FB.
October 8, 200916 yr Author Am I wrong with my assumption (assuming both are redshirted) that transferring after the season and sitting out next season would essentially just cost them a year of eligibility, since they are using their one redshirt this year? Maybe it's just me, but unless I just absolutely hated the situation... I don't know that I'd do something to cause me to sit back to back years. I'd probably stay where I could at least compete for the job, be that UK or elsewhere. That's why a lot of top-notch guys end up tearing it up at an NAIA school, where they're eligible immediately upon transfer.
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