UK's recruiting dilemma

[Jim Schue]

I'm asking honest questions here. Don't immediately get riled up, folks, just because it's me asking the questions.

 

There is much hand-wringing about the QB situation. In Nets' wrap-up thread from the Alabama game, it was questioned when UK would stumble across a decent QB again.

 

I'm of the opinion that the next time UK has a top-notch QB will be when Kentucky HS FB produces one. Why? Because where else can UK go to get one? What top-flite QB is going to come here (who doesn't already have ties to UK, whether that be as a fan or as the son of an alumnus) over a Florida or Alabama?

 

It's part of the larger recruiting dilemma for UK, and why the recent bowl streak has fans feeling warm and fuzzy, but wondering why UK can't take the next step and make headway against the rest of the SEC. In most rankings of recent recruiting classes, UK has done better on a national scale than they historically do. Yet, even with better recruiting classes they still are ranked near the bottom of the SEC in recruiting.

 

UK's area to recruit top-flite players, at any position, is extremely limited. They're walled-in, geographically, with Ohio St. and other Big 11 teams getting the best kids from the north, Notre Dame and ACC schools getting the best kids from the east coast, the Big 12 clubs to the west, and the SEC heavyweights getting the best kids in the south.

 

All UK has to choose from are the gizzards and livers and necks of the chicken, if you'll pardon the term. Still tasty pieces, mind you, but you'd obviously rather have the breast of the chicken. So with only the leftover pieces that the other schools didn't want or need, it puts a premium on UK being able to identify overlooked kids and late-bloomers. They may get a few who are top-notch, but never the depth of talent needed to be able to withstand the SEC grind.

 

How does UK address this dilemma? What can UK football do to attract a wealth of blue-chippers — to get them to come to Lex instead of Gainesville or Knoxville or Tuscaloosa? I've been hard on Rich Brooks in the past, and I have to admit that what he's been able to do during his tenure has been impressive, given the depths from which he's lifted the program. However, the past couple seasons have shown that he's reached his ceiling.

 

What does Rich and Joker and Co. do in the future to bust through that ceiling, and remove the rest of the SEC's bootheels from UK's neck? Are they even capable of doing so, or is someone else with a higher-profile nationally the answer?

 

How does UK bring in not just one or two top-flite guys per class, but a dozen or two (which is what it takes to compete for SEC crowns)? Kentucky HS ranks produce a few good players each year, but nowhere near enough to lift a program like UK to the top of the SEC heap.

 

And please, I'm interested in rational, non-emotional discussion here, and that goes for UK fans as well as others such as myself, who aren't Big Blue fans. Thanks.

[HT721]

The number one thing they can do is just win games, if you aren't winning it will be extremely hard to get top talent from outside the borders of Ky. They need to win some games against real non-conference opponents though. With UK being 1-23 against the Big 4 in the SEC East they need some other significant non conference wins to hang their hats on.

[pigman]

I agree with a lot that you're saying. We all thought the issue at QB had been answered with two 4 star recruits coming in, but obviously not. I don't know if when Brooks hangs it up Joker looks for a big time recruiter or what. Some fresh blood in the coaching ranks with some different connections is probably a must. I remember Guy Morris saying several times his 22 were as good as most peoples, not that ours are at this point, but depth is essential in the SEC, so great evaluation of the kids we are in on needs to continue. Other than that I have no answer.

[bugatti]

I agree with a lot that you're saying. We all thought the issue at QB had been answered with two 4 star recruits coming in, but obviously not. I don't know if when Brooks hangs it up Joker looks for a big time recruiter or what. Some fresh blood in the coaching ranks with some different connections is probably a must. I remember Guy Morris saying several times his 22 were as good as most peoples, not that ours are at this point, but depth is essential in the SEC, so great evaluation of the kids we are in on needs to continue. Other than that I have no answer.

Expecting any true Freshman to come in and contribute is asking a lot. Matt Barkley and Tate Forcier are the exception and not the rule as far as highly regarded recruits coming in and making an impact. I am still holding out hope these guys will contribute.

[5wide]

UK has two solid freshman QB's on the roster right now in Ryan Mossakowski and Morgan Newton.

 

Mossakowski is from Texas and he received a 4-star rating from both Scout and Rivals.

 

Newton was Mr. Football in Indiana, I believe, and got a 4-star rating from Scout and a 3-star from Rivals.

 

I think it my be a little early to start shoveling dirt on UK under Rich Brooks because they've had to struggle with Hartline for a couple of seasons. Why don't we wait and see how those two guys progress?

 

Building this football program is a process, and it's not always going to be wine and roses. What I like is that even with Hartline last season, UK finished 7-6 with a bowl win, and they have a chance to do that again this year. In the past, if we had an inept offense and a QB like Hartline, we'd be lucky to win 3 games and we wouldn't even have the hope of a bowl game. That, in itself, is proof that Brooks has significantly upgraded the talent and depth of our roster.

 

On top of that, HT721 is exactly right. UK just has to keep winning football games. We need to keep winning bowl games and keep the momentum going forward. UK doesn't have the tradition to absorb a bad season or two like a speed bump the way traditional powers like Michigan and OSU can...they need to keep it going and keep attracting better recruits. There are guys who will choose a rising program like UK because it offers them an opportunity to play earlier in their career. That's why they need to keep winning.

[bugatti]

I'm asking honest questions here. Don't immediately get riled up, folks, just because it's me asking the questions.

 

There is much hand-wringing about the QB situation. In Nets' wrap-up thread from the Alabama game, it was questioned when UK would stumble across a decent QB again.

 

I'm of the opinion that the next time UK has a top-notch QB will be when Kentucky HS FB produces one. Why? Because where else can UK go to get one? What top-flite QB is going to come here (who doesn't already have ties to UK, whether that be as a fan or as the son of an alumnus) over a Florida or Alabama?

 

It's part of the larger recruiting dilemma for UK, and why the recent bowl streak has fans feeling warm and fuzzy, but wondering why UK can't take the next step and make headway against the rest of the SEC. In most rankings of recent recruiting classes, UK has done better on a national scale than they historically do. Yet, even with better recruiting classes they still are ranked near the bottom of the SEC in recruiting.

 

UK's area to recruit top-flite players, at any position, is extremely limited. They're walled-in, geographically, with Ohio St. and other Big 11 teams getting the best kids from the north, Notre Dame and ACC schools getting the best kids from the east coast, the Big 12 clubs to the west, and the SEC heavyweights getting the best kids in the south.

 

All UK has to choose from are the gizzards and livers and necks of the chicken, if you'll pardon the term. Still tasty pieces, mind you, but you'd obviously rather have the breast of the chicken. So with only the leftover pieces that the other schools didn't want or need, it puts a premium on UK being able to identify overlooked kids and late-bloomers. They may get a few who are top-notch, but never the depth of talent needed to be able to withstand the SEC grind.

 

How does UK address this dilemma? What can UK football do to attract a wealth of blue-chippers — to get them to come to Lex instead of Gainesville or Knoxville or Tuscaloosa? I've been hard on Rich Brooks in the past, and I have to admit that what he's been able to do during his tenure has been impressive, given the depths from which he's lifted the program. However, the past couple seasons have shown that he's reached his ceiling.

 

What does Rich and Joker and Co. do in the future to bust through that ceiling, and remove the rest of the SEC's bootheels from UK's neck? Are they even capable of doing so, or is someone else with a higher-profile nationally the answer?

 

How does UK bring in not just one or two top-flite guys per class, but a dozen or two (which is what it takes to compete for SEC crowns)? Kentucky HS ranks produce a few good players each year, but nowhere near enough to lift a program like UK to the top of the SEC heap.

 

And please, I'm interested in rational, non-emotional discussion here, and that goes for UK fans as well as others such as myself, who aren't Big Blue fans. Thanks.

 

I am going to be glass half empty guy. In my opinion, UK is never going to be really good at football. They may be able to have a spurt here in there of success. Maybe even still a conference championship or two somewhere along the lines. They simply are not an institution that will consistently attract top level talent.

[ColonelCrazy]

You're right, and this is something that we've known for a while. Kentucky has had a very solid stretch of recruiting, amassing top 40 classes. But, they're still 9th or 10th in the SEC in terms of recruiting rankings. Competing with Florida, Tennessee, Georgia, Alabama, etc. is almost impossible for Kentucky to do.

 

While I agree with the premise of your post, JS, I must say that Kentucky brought in two very good QB's this year in Mossakowski & Morgan Newton. So your statement that UK won't bring in another "top flight" QB until KY produces one is off base, although the basic principle is fairly accurate.

[ColonelCrazy]

Expecting any true Freshman to come in and contribute is asking a lot. Matt Barkley and Tate Forcier are the exception and not the rule as far as highly regarded recruits coming in and making an impact. I am still holding out hope these guys will contribute.

 

Kentucky will benefit much more from redshirting these players & letting them develop. There's no sense in rushing them and not getting their full value.

[Jim Schue]

The number one thing they can do is just win games, if you aren't winning it will be extremely hard to get top talent from outside the borders of Ky. They need to win some games against real non-conference opponents though. With UK being 1-23 against the Big 4 in the SEC East they need some other significant non conference wins to hang their hats on.

 

By the same token, you have to have the depth of talent to win the big games. It seems UK football is caught up in a vicious cycle in that regard.

 

But I agree that padding the schedule against weak non-con teams just to get bowl-eligible isn't really helping their case. What would it hurt to play an Illinois or Virginia or Missouri every now and then?

[Watusi]

What does Rich and Joker and Co. do in the future to bust through that ceiling, and remove the rest of the SEC's bootheels from UK's neck? Are they even capable of doing so, or is someone else with a higher-profile nationally the answer?

 

I know it is two different programs with vastly different histories, but they might have to only look to the UK basketball recruiting turnaround over the last 8 months for an answer to that question. And even at that, how could you expect anything that dramatic?

[ColonelCrazy]

To answer the question in the thread:

 

Kentucky must rely on the success that their quarterbacks have had in the pro-style offense to lure other QB's in. If there is a weakness with Florida, South Carolina, Alabama, etc., it is the fact that their quarterbacks have not done well on the next level. Joker Phillips & Rich Brooks have stood by their pro-style offense, and I think that's what landed Mossakoswki.

 

Additionally, Randy Sanders should become the offensive coordinator when Brooks retires. Sanders is well-known for what he did during his tenure at Tennessee, which included coaching Peyton Manning (among others).

 

Although none of Kentucky's quarterbacks have gone on to great success on the next level, the fact remains that they have been drawing a paycheck in the NFL. Tim Couch went #1 overall. Shane Boyd found his way onto a roster for a period of time. Jared Lorenzen was a backup for a while. Andre Woodson is floating around the league somewhere. It's up to the next Kentucky QB to make that next step from holding a clipboard to becoming an NFL star.

[Jim Schue]

UK has two solid freshman QB's on the roster right now in Ryan Mossakowski and Morgan Newton.

 

Mossakowski is from Texas and he received a 4-star rating from both Scout and Rivals.

 

Newton was Mr. Football in Indiana, I believe, and got a 4-star rating from Scout and a 3-star from Rivals.

 

I think it my be a little early to start shoveling dirt on UK under Rich Brooks because they've had to struggle with Hartline for a couple of seasons. Why don't we wait and see how those two guys progress?

 

Building this football program is a process, and it's not always going to be wine and roses. What I like is that even with Hartline last season, UK finished 7-6 with a bowl win, and they have a chance to do that again this year. In the past, if we had an inept offense and a QB like Hartline, we'd be lucky to win 3 games and we wouldn't even have the hope of a bowl game. That, in itself, is proof that Brooks has significantly upgraded the talent and depth of our roster.

 

On top of that, HT721 is exactly right. UK just has to keep winning football games. We need to keep winning bowl games and keep the momentum going forward. UK doesn't have the tradition to absorb a bad season or two like a speed bump the way traditional powers like Michigan and OSU can...they need to keep it going and keep attracting better recruits. There are guys who will choose a rising program like UK because it offers them an opportunity to play earlier in their career. That's why they need to keep winning.

 

You're right, and this is something that we've known for a while. Kentucky has had a very solid stretch of recruiting, amassing top 40 classes. But, they're still 9th or 10th in the SEC in terms of recruiting rankings. Competing with Florida, Tennessee, Georgia, Alabama, etc. is almost impossible for Kentucky to do.

 

While I agree with the premise of your post, JS, I must say that Kentucky brought in two very good QB's this year in Mossakowski & Morgan Newton. So your statement that UK won't bring in another "top flight" QB until KY produces one is off base, although the basic principle is fairly accurate.

 

Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't help but wonder why they came here instead of going somewhere bigger? I have a hard time believing those guys turned down offers to go to Florida or Texas to come here. Which means that they were leftovers that the big-name programs didn't want or need.

 

Ask yourself honestly: How often does any top-flite player, if given the option of going to a traditional football powerhouse or coming to UK, choose UK? Not saying it never happens, but obviously it's not enough to make UK a consistent threat to the SEC big boys.

[Original Rookie]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't help but wonder why they came here instead of going somewhere bigger? I have a hard time believing those guys turned down offers to go to Florida or Texas to come here. Which means that they were leftovers that the big-name programs didn't want or need.

 

Ask yourself honestly: How often does any top-flite player, if given the option of going to a traditional football powerhouse or coming to UK, choose UK? Not saying it never happens, but obviously it's not enough to make UK a consistent threat to the SEC big boys.

Nobody in their right might thinks UK gets to the football program to the level of Florida or Texas. You take the guys that these schools pass on and develop them in your system and become as good as you can be. The only "top flight" player (being 5 star recruit), that I can remember in recent memory is Micah Johnson.

[woodsrider]

Nobody in their right might thinks UK gets to the football program to the level of Florida or Texas. You take the guys that these schools pass on and develop them in your system and become as good as you can be. The only "top flight" player (being 5 star recruit), that I can remember in recent memory is Micah Johnson.

This pretty much nails it. Look no further then a couple of years ago. Woodyard, Woodsen, Lindley, Jarmon, Little, Burton, Johnson,...none of these guys were going to get offers from Florida or Texas or USC but they all turned into very good college players and UK had good success with them.

[Original Rookie]

This thread is really just pointing out the obvious. This is why UK has never and will never become a football powerhouse in the SEC. There is no solution to the question. We have to do the best we can with what we have and hope it is good enough to compete. Is it really any secret that the top programs year in college football are in locations of the country that produce elite talent every year? Think about it... Florida, Texas, USC, Ohio St... all have loads and loads of talent to pick from. The state of Florida has so much talent that USF became a contender in the Big East in no time just by taking the left overs. Heck, they went 8-3 in their second year of existence.