When these tragedies occur, we are always looking for a reason and/or someone to blame so that we can make sense of it. If it was my son, I would be outraged (for lack of a more intense word) and would pursue any avenue I could to find out what happened and to punish whoever was responsible. But sometimes, there just isnt a "someone."

 

I agree, there are many factors to be taken into consideration here. Sportsfan makes excellent points and the hydrating before issue is also important.

 

On the other hand, coaches should also be taking all of these things into consideration when dealing with athletes. No doubt the coaches are devastated and are questioning themselves.

 

As we all know, eyewitness stories can change to sensationalize any topic. I find it hard to believe there was any criminal behavior here, but have no problem with a thorough investigation into it.

 

I hope, if nothing else comes of this, coaches, parents and athletes are reminded AGAIN of the fact that all high school athletes are boys/girls who do not always do as they are told (like hyrating before). Every "body" is different with different tolerances and different needs. Maybe we need to have a policy where water is available all the time, but definately with breaks in between.

I'm asking a legit question and not trying to counter anything you say. I trust your knowledge in this area.

 

His body temp was 107 by the time he got to the hospital so lets assume it was a bit higher during practice. Would taking water breaks during practice help lower his temp if we assume he didn't hydrate properly before practice?

 

Very, very, very good question ... which is exactly why we let the kids drink when ever they feel like it .. and why we also take the required breaks based on KHSAA heat guidelines. There are a couple more questions that could come from your questions.

 

To answer: his body temperature could come down by drinking--but it is my understanding that you wouldn't see a huge, immediate jump. This is where/why the KHSAA suggests having iced towels. Cool rooms are used in a lot of programs as well. Heck, In cross country--we set up a tent so there is extra shade on hot days.

 

At the school where I coach football ... water is handled in the same manner. At both schools--we adjust our practice times to very early in the morning (for the first practice) and 7:00 pm at night (for the second football practice--which also coincides with our summer cross country practice at the other school where I coach).

 

Not conducting an autopsy is fairly curious from my point of view. It makes me wonder where the parents stand with this situation. It is my understanding that heat stroke doesn't just orginate from dehydration ... but usually other factors that are either pre-existing or otherwise unknown.

 

The buzz will naturally be "did the coach intentionally withhold water from the kids" ... however .. there are some people that could fight--and possibly prove that the kid was in trouble before he walked on the field because he wasn't properly hydrated to begin with. (I don't have an opinion on that--simply because we have worked very hard to master the gray area between making sure our kids are safe--while demanding a great deal). There has to be responsibility and accountability on both sides. Right now--we are only hearing about one side.

There is no criminal behavior here, even if what the witnesses claim was said, was in fact said.

 

quickslick has nailed it, the medical research is very clear that heat stroke is an advance event, meaning that he could have taken a drink of cold water, but having already been dangerously dehydrated, the die was already cast.

 

I know no coach who stops conditioning sprints for water breaks.

 

However, during practice, there should be constant hydration. Having played both high school and college, there is a stark contrast between the way hydration occurs at those 2 levels. In high school, we got a water break twice per practice. In college, there were trainers walking around with water bottles and you could, if you wanted, have taken a sip after every play or series.

 

'Take a salt pill' doesn't cut it anymore.

So I guess if you have a kid playing football and he is feeling hot or sick and needs a drink during a drill, regardles if he just had a drink five minutes before and he still feels hot or ill and the coach denies him that drink and he drops and later dies, you support that coach in his decision not to let your kid have a drink during a drill?

Expected or not, if a kid needs a drink on a hot day during a football practice, you let him stop and get a drink.

So the drill was interupted to get a life saving drink.......I can't understand the why this would be a problem.

 

I think we need to wait for the post mortem results and go from there. In KY it can take a month (or longer) before toxicology results are in, and the autopsy is not final until the toxicology results are in so we may not know the facts for a while. Of couse in a high profile case such as this one, the tests may get priority and be put ahead of other cases.

 

There's not going to be an autopsy.

 

And when will the schools in this state finally come to their senses and get athletic trainers on site for games and practices?

There's not going to be an autopsy.

 

And when will the schools in this state finally come to their senses and get athletic trainers on site for games and practices?

 

I thought schools already did. Ours always did, and that was almost ten years ago when I first started out there.

 

Is it not currently mandatory by KHSAA?

Edited August 28, 200818 yr by STRIKE3
fixed quote

I thought schools already did. Ours always did, and that was almost ten years ago when I first started out there.

 

Is it not currently mandatory by KHSAA?

 

No it is not mandatory and most small schools cannot afford it. You see ambulances sitting at games in case they are needed maybe they should be at the practices too.

Edited August 28, 200818 yr by STRIKE3
fixed quote

There's not going to be an autopsy.

 

And when will the schools in this state finally come to their senses and get athletic trainers on site for games and practices?[/QUOTE]

 

I thought schools already did. Ours always did, and that was almost ten years ago when I first started out there.

 

Is it not currently mandatory by KHSAA?

 

No it's not.

 

And as to the other comment about small schools, if they want to have sports, particularly football, then they need to figure out how to fund it.

 

No it's not.

 

And as to the other comment about small schools, if they want to have sports, particularly football, then they need to figure out how to fund it.

 

:thumb:

While the situation is tragic, I doubt there are very many coaches ANYWHERE that allow their players to get water during conditioning. It is called "conditioning" for a reason. Never have I had a coach allow anyone to get water during after-practice sprints, nor have I ever known any player that I've played with expect to get water during that time...

Who is the head coach at PRP?

There is no criminal behavior here, even if what the witnesses claim was said, was in fact said.

 

quickslick has nailed it, the medical research is very clear that heat stroke is an advance event, meaning that he could have taken a drink of cold water, but having already been dangerously dehydrated, the die was already cast.

 

I know no coach who stops conditioning sprints for water breaks.

 

However, during practice, there should be constant hydration. Having played both high school and college, there is a stark contrast between the way hydration occurs at those 2 levels. In high school, we got a water break twice per practice. In college, there were trainers walking around with water bottles and you could, if you wanted, have taken a sip after every play or series.

 

'Take a salt pill' doesn't cut it anymore.

 

And your personal insight into this particular situation is what? You should contact the police and let them know you've already pre-determined there cannot possibly be any criminal wrongdoing on the part of anyone and they are wasting their time. Because, as we all know, no coach should ever possibly have to consider allowing for water breaks during conditioning sprints. Case solved.

 

Fact is you just might be right. Then again, you might very well be wrong. I guess that's why we should wait for the professionals to make their assessment and not pre-assign blame, nor automatically exonerate, anyone.

 

But I simply will never accept that when coaches are conducting extremely intensive physical conditioning in full football gear in mid-90 degree weather, this unwritten "rule" that there are "never water breaks given" during conditioning sprints cannot be broken. It is flat-out dangerous. Folks, it's a game involving kids. Nothing more. Too many times, adults lose sight of this.

Edited August 28, 200818 yr by cooperstown

And your personal insight into this particular situation is what? You should contact the police and let them know you've already pre-determined there cannot possibly be any criminal wrongdoing on the part of anyone and they are wasting their time. Because, as we all know, no coach should ever possibly have to consider allowing for water breaks during conditioning sprints. Case solved.

 

Fact is you just might be right. Then again, you might very well be wrong. I guess that's why we should wait for the professionals to make their assessment and not pre-assign blame, nor automatically exonerate, anyone.

 

But I simply will never accept that when coaches are conducting extremely intensive physical conditioning in full football gear in mid-90 degree weather, this unwritten "rule" that there are "never water breaks given" during conditioning sprints cannot be broken. It is flat-out dangerous. Folks, it's a game involving kids. Nothing more. Too many times, adults lose sight of this.

 

 

A little much, but honestly too much water in this type of activity can cause cramping as well. Most coaches are going to push their athletes, that's part of what conditioning is. If players were allowed water every time they wanted it or "felt they need it", the team as a whole would suffer a great deal. The kids should be hydrated enough before practice, that the coach's should be able to follow the rules and regulations and not have something like this happen. Accidents do happen. It's tragic, but just as sad is that everyone is quick to blame someone else for what could very likely be a freak accident.

Quickslick makes some valid points about hydrating before hot weather events. Very well said. I do have a problem with the perception that you cannot get water during a drill. Regardless of it being conditioning or not, if someone needs water you let them have it. I am a personal trainer and would never think of instructing someone they cannot drink until the set or drill is complete, and I am training indoors!

The other aspect that I feel is at work when talking about proper hydration and preparedness before is the culture that has been created especially in football not to show weakness. Maybe this young man didn't feel right before practice began and was simply afraid to say anything to his coaches. It doesn't matter to me that maybe he wasn't properly hydrated or "ready" for the heat, it is the adults responsibility to monitor and assess the situation. I think that speaks to having an athletic trainer near when the conditions warrant. I just have a problem with justifying a coach telling a kid at any point and time that he cannot get water.

Quickslick makes some valid points about hydrating before hot weather events. Very well said. I do have a problem with the perception that you cannot get water during a drill. Regardless of it being conditioning or not, if someone needs water you let them have it. I am a personal trainer and would never think of instructing someone they cannot drink until the set or drill is complete, and I am training indoors!

The other aspect that I feel is at work when talking about proper hydration and preparedness before is the culture that has been created especially in football not to show weakness. Maybe this young man didn't feel right before practice began and was simply afraid to say anything to his coaches. It doesn't matter to me that maybe he wasn't properly hydrated or "ready" for the heat, it is the adults responsibility to monitor and assess the situation. I think that speaks to having an athletic trainer near when the conditions warrant. I just have a problem with justifying a coach telling a kid at any point and time that he cannot get water.

 

:thumb: Solid post.

The story linked in the first post is a much shorter version than what appeared in today's print version.

 

In the print version, a Rhonda Barnett, whose daughter attends PRP, was quoted as saying she heard a player ask if he could stop and get a drink:

 

 

 

I know football coaches are intense and such, but I have a hard time believing the PRP coach said that. Especially with the memory of the Henderson Co. player's death still pretty fresh from a couple of years ago.

 

Again, I ask, was Barnett carrying a notebook or a tape recorder?

 

That wouldn't be that hard to remember...