That wouldn't be that hard to remember...

 

Even after, as was noted in the story, the woman went down to the field to try to attend to the player? In what was likely and extremely high-stress situation, with lots of people yelling lots of things? I'm just not buying it.

In all my years of sports, we always did conditioning at the end of practice, typically 3 or 4 gassers, and never once did we EVER take water break during this portion of practice, heck its over in a matter of minutes anyway.

So I guess if you have a kid playing football and he is feeling hot or sick and needs a drink during a drill, regardles if he just had a drink five minutes before and he still feels hot or ill and the coach denies him that drink and he drops and later dies, you support that coach in his decision not to let your kid have a drink during a drill?

Expected or not, if a kid needs a drink on a hot day during a football practice, you let him stop and get a drink.

So the drill was interupted to get a life saving drink.......I can't understand the why this would be a problem.

 

I think we need to wait for the post mortem results and go from there. In KY it can take a month (or longer) before toxicology results are in, and the autopsy is not final until the toxicology results are in so we may not know the facts for a while. Of couse in a high profile case such as this one, the tests may get priority and be put ahead of other cases.

 

I understand your point, but consider this...

 

How does the player then get conditioned for game situations? If they are stopping every five minutes during practice to get a drink, are we then going to institute mandatory water breaks every five minutes during a game? The coach has the responsibility to get his kids in shape and their bodies ready to take the physical demands of football. This is not to say that the coach should not follow KHSAA heat guidelines (which are fair and practical), but we do have to find a happy medium between endangering a player and conditioning.

There's not going to be an autopsy.

 

And when will the schools in this state finally come to their senses and get athletic trainers on site for games and practices?

 

For urban schools that is an easy option.

For rural schools that must rely on athletic trainers coming from Lex, Louisville, NKY, meaning a drive of an hour or more to their county, that is not as readily an affordable option as much as the AD and coaches would want it to be.

The way my job was I was able to attend a lot of practices the four years my son played at Male. Coach Stammerman was the trainer and was at every practice. Two-A- days, there were water breaks that pleased me, cold watermelon, orange slices, gatorade, was also there. My son could get water anytime he wanted/needed.

 

I also have a son that played/playing soccer. Now, when I read the C-J about Mrs. Francis/Barnett there was a red flag in these witness's statements.

 

When my child plays soccer, I'm watching soccer, not a football practice on a field thats gonna be some distance away. OK, they heard a coach yelling, but at that distance could they actually hear conversation between the players and coaches? Even a yelling coach they can hear the yell but actually hear what he was saying? How could they hear kids asking for water.

 

When Max passed out at this distance that I mentioned, how did they see if he passed out or just laid down?

 

Now, I can't remember the distance at PRP of the two fields, but I don't think the practice field and game field could be that close.

 

My last point, coaches yell at practice, what made them look at this moment?

Now, like I said, they have a child playing soccer and I love football but if my child is playing a real game, I watching him.

 

I know what Jim meant in his post.

 

I still cry when I think about Max and the kids/coaches at PRP.

For urban schools that is an easy option.

For rural schools that must rely on athletic trainers coming from Lex, Louisville, NKY, meaning a drive of an hour or more to their county, that is not as readily an affordable option as much as the AD and coaches would want it to be.

 

Then you hire one to live in your community rather then relying on clinical ATCs from cities.

Even after, as was noted in the story, the woman went down to the field to try to attend to the player? In what was likely and extremely high-stress situation, with lots of people yelling lots of things? I'm just not buying it.

 

That woman was a nurse BTW, so I'll go out on a limb and say she knows what she saw. I also assume she's used to stress. In a way, I hold her somewhat responsible because she let it go on, with her nursing background, even though she saw he was already unconscious. It was probably too late at that point to save him, but I think she should have tried.

 

He also told kids that they can't get a drink until they quit sweating. Anyone with half a brain knows it's too late by then, that heat stroke has already started. And he was an NFL player, so he should know better.

Edited August 29, 200818 yr by miragesmack

The way my job was I was able to attend a lot of practices the four years my son played at Male. Coach Stammerman was the trainer and was at every practice. Two-A- days, there were water breaks that pleased me, cold watermelon, orange slices, gatorade, was also there. My son could get water anytime he wanted/needed.

 

I also have a son that played/playing soccer. Now, when I read the C-J about Mrs. Francis/Barnett there was a red flag in these witness's statements.

 

When my child plays soccer, I'm watching soccer, not a football practice on a field thats gonna be some distance away. OK, they heard a coach yelling, but at that distance could they actually hear conversation between the players and coaches? Even a yelling coach they can hear the yell but actually hear what he was saying? How could they hear kids asking for water.

 

When Max passed out at this distance that I mentioned, how did they see if he passed out or just laid down?

 

Now, I can't remember the distance at PRP of the two fields, but I don't think the practice field and game field could be that close.

 

My last point, coaches yell at practice, what made them look at this moment?

Now, like I said, they have a child playing soccer and I love football but if my child is playing a real game, I watching him.

 

I know what Jim meant in his post.

 

I still cry when I think about Max and the kids/coaches at PRP.

 

Coach Stammerman IS NOT a certified athletic trainer and IMVHO should be brought up on criminal charges if he is calling himself a trainer.

 

What credentials does this man have?

 

Where did he go to school?

 

Schools using noncertified coaches as a substitute for ATCs is not only stupid, it is criminal. You wouldn't entrust your health-care to an unlicensed person calling themselves a physician or nurse, you wouldn't even take your dog to an unlicensed vet, why be happy that an noncertified person is the one responsible for looking after your child's health while they are playing sports.

There is no criminal behavior here, even if what the witnesses claim was said, was in fact said.

 

quickslick has nailed it, the medical research is very clear that heat stroke is an advance event, meaning that he could have taken a drink of cold water, but having already been dangerously dehydrated, the die was already cast.

 

I know no coach who stops conditioning sprints for water breaks.

 

However, during practice, there should be constant hydration. Having played both high school and college, there is a stark contrast between the way hydration occurs at those 2 levels. In high school, we got a water break twice per practice. In college, there were trainers walking around with water bottles and you could, if you wanted, have taken a sip after every play or series.

 

 

Not sure how you can say that. When I was in management, we had a supervisor that was successfully sued because they didn't notice an employee was impared, and the employee ended up being killed. In fact, no one noticed she was on drugs and alcohol, some folks hide it very well. But the supe was responsible because part of our job was to make sure you're fit for duty, just like these coaches should make sure their kids are fit for duty. My kids coach notices these things in warmups, though we are only talking 20 kids at a time. It just takes a little more attention to detail.

 

Just because folks did something one way in the past doesn't mean things can't change.

And your personal insight into this particular situation is what? You should contact the police and let them know you've already pre-determined there cannot possibly be any criminal wrongdoing on the part of anyone and they are wasting their time. Because, as we all know, no coach should ever possibly have to consider allowing for water breaks during conditioning sprints. Case solved.

 

Fact is you just might be right. Then again, you might very well be wrong. I guess that's why we should wait for the professionals to make their assessment and not pre-assign blame, nor automatically exonerate, anyone.

 

But I simply will never accept that when coaches are conducting extremely intensive physical conditioning in full football gear in mid-90 degree weather, this unwritten "rule" that there are "never water breaks given" during conditioning sprints cannot be broken. It is flat-out dangerous. Folks, it's a game involving kids. Nothing more. Too many times, adults lose sight of this.

 

I'm not going to spend time engaging your hyperbole, but the question in my head is what crime would you charge the coach with? Reckless homicide? Wanton endangerment? To carry the thesis out to its illogical conclusion doesn't compute. A player has a tender ankle and the coach lets him play. He breaks it. Charge the coach with assault? A player penalized for jumping offisdes again and again is made to run extra gassers. Criminal abuse?

 

There may be negligence and even gross negligence here and if so, a civil action will lie. But I stand by my assertion that there is no criminal behavior, no mens rea, probably not even a qualifying actus reus.

Not sure how you can say that. When I was in management, we had a supervisor that was successfully sued because they didn't notice an employee was impared, and the employee ended up being killed. In fact, no one noticed she was on drugs and alcohol, some folks hide it very well. But the supe was responsible because part of our job was to make sure you're fit for duty, just like these coaches should make sure their kids are fit for duty. My kids coach notices these things in warmups, though we are only talking 20 kids at a time. It just takes a little more attention to detail.

 

Just because folks did something one way in the past doesn't mean things can't change.

 

Your supervisor was sued, civilly, not charged with a crime.

That woman was a nurse BTW, so I'll go out on a limb and say she knows what she saw. I also assume she's used to stress. In a way, I hold her somewhat responsible because she let it go on, with her nursing background, even though she saw he was already unconscious. It was probably too late at that point to save him, but I think she should have tried.

 

Unless she's an ER/Trauma unit nurse, I doubt she's used to that type stress.

 

He also told kids that they can't get a drink until they quit sweating. Anyone with half a brain knows it's too late by then, that heat stroke has already started. And he was an NFL player, so he should know better.

 

Where did you hear this?

Your supervisor was sued, civilly, not charged with a crime.

 

Yes. I'm not a lawyer, so it's all the same to me.:lol: Company was sued ($$$$) as well.

Unless she's an ER/Trauma unit nurse, I doubt she's used to that type stress.

 

Where did you hear this?

 

 

The folks at the soccer game contacted WHAS radio via email. They did this right after the game, but the host held off till yesterday because of the sensitive subject and to verify some facts.

 

It has also been printed in the CJ, from the same source.

 

Honestly, I saw a Western soccer player (who I didn't know) killed on the field several years ago, and I remember almost everything about that day. Something like that sticks with you.

I'm not going to spend time engaging your hyperbole, but the question in my head is what crime would you charge the coach with? Reckless homicide? Wanton endangerment? To carry the thesis out to its illogical conclusion doesn't compute. A player has a tender ankle and the coach lets him play. He breaks it. Charge the coach with assault? A player penalized for jumping offisdes again and again is made to run extra gassers. Criminal abuse?

 

There may be negligence and even gross negligence here and if so, a civil action will lie. But I stand by my assertion that there is no criminal behavior, no mens rea, probably not even a qualifying actus reus.

 

Absolutely there are criminal charges that could potentially apply in a situation in which a coach abused his players and withheld water. Certainly wanton endangerment applies and, under the right circumstances, even involuntary manslaughter. I am in NO WAY implying that is what occurred in the PRP situation. I don't know any of the facts to make such an assertion and will await the law enforcement officials investigating that matter tell us if they think such a crime occurred. But, make no mistake, a coach's actions on the field could very easily have criminal - not just civil - ramifications.