Well, then we really didn't need Jesus. We could just follow the teachings of Ghandi, or Mother Theresa, or Fred Rogers, or the Mickey Mouse Clubhouse. Everyone will get along. Come on in everyone, the water's fine. Everyone lives forever, hooray!

 

Gooch, it doesn't work this way.

 

 

:thumb: I couldn't have said it any better.

Fred can't save your soul. Jesus has prepared a house (mansion) for you. A nice guy will not find this home based on his good works. If Fred did not accept Jesus as a believer he is in the same place as Hitler.

 

:thumb: I again agree 100% with this.

 

and...............I will still continue to pray for Gooch and others.

I would like to here was the Catholic belief is all about.

 

I love the way you phrased that. For me, while I am definitely a stickler for the bits of wisdom to be found in the Code of Canon Law and the Catechism, the feeling of that belief is at the heart of the Church. I don't know if that "feeling" will ever strike you in a thread that resembles more of a sales floor, with each religion making its "pitch" than any real examination of faith. I don't think it would have helped me.

 

After a significant period of doubt, the writings of the saints are what brought me back to the faith of my youth. Perhaps the two most influential books I have ever picked up in my entire life are The Seven Storey Mountain by Thomas Merton and The Autobiography of St. Therese of Lisieux. Merton's book mirrored the same doubt and search for meaning that I had in my own life while St. Therese had the type of unwavering faith that I could only wish for.

 

When Christ ascended into heaven, it is likely most of the apostles and believers thought that the "return" he spoke of would happen within the next week, the next month, the next year. The story of the Catholic Church is the 2,000-year history of how that community of believers has lived, worked, and worshipped, all the while adjusting to the reality that His second coming will come on God's time, not ours. It is a reality that is reflected in our art, our philosophy, our everyday lives and in almost everything else that connects an otherwise completely diverse community.

 

As a result of that 2,000-year story, the volumes recounting the history, philosophy and theology of the Catholic Church are seemingly endless. But at the heart of each and every one of those countless writings is the notion that God is to be seen as our Father, worthy of all our love and devotion. He, in his infinite mercy and despite all the times we fail to give Him that love, loves us as a father to his children. Love... that is the only word that matters in the entire world. Throughout all the pamphlets, tracts, treatises, encyclicals, books and volumes ever issued in the name of the Holy Catholic Church, there has been only one message: love. I can't stress that word enough as to what it means for us.

 

That love was given a name when Jesus Christ came to Earth and willingly took onto his shoulders all the hate, viciousness, violence and indifference we hold in our own hearts and reduced them to nothing by his sacrifice. "No greater love is there than this: to lay down one's life for his friends." That has always been one of my favorite passages and I think it exemplifies everything that the Catholic Church has always stood for.

Our limited human mind says Jesus was either fully divine or fully man.

 

But thinking outside the box, why couldn't he had been both?

Our limited human mind says Jesus was either fully divine or fully man.

 

But thinking outside the box, why couldn't he had been both?

 

That is a good question! Here is my response... If he was fully man, he would suffer the fate of man. He would have failed while being tempted. All men sin, at least that is the premise that I believe. If Jesus is man, he has sin, thus ruins the "perfect sacrifice" for our sins. However this is where I agree with you did Jesus not wept for his friend, Lazerus (sp). Did he not laugh with his disciplies, did he not get mad at the temple? Of course He did, thus having human emotions.

 

Jesus was divine. How do I know? I believe in the resurrection, something I can not do! I can not feed five thousand. I can not cast out demons. I can not walk on water, or turn water into wine. I can not raise people from the dead, heal the blind/sick/deaf or mute. I can not say cast my net on the other side of the boat and there are so many fish that it nearly breaks the net. I can not tell someone go down to the river catch a fish, inside the fish there will be $20 to pay a tax.

 

I can not do any of the aboved mentioned alone, however, with Him all things are possible.

As I said earlier, there are those who can quote scripture that shows the humanity of Jesus. "why do you call me good, there is only one that is good and that is the father in heaven." Do you just ignore this scripture?

 

As you would ignore the countless scriptures that attest to the divinity of Jesus.

 

In this instance, Jesus was making his point with a question. The rich young ruler had to come to the knowledge that either Jesus was not good, or He was good and thus was God...it had to be one way or the other.

As to the Divinity of Christ, and the Catholic teachings on the subject, I invite you to explore Catholic.com. Specifically, the page on the Divinity of Christ.

 

 

Christ’s divinity is shown over and over again in the New Testament. For example, in John 5:18 we are told that Jesus’ opponents sought to kill him because he "called God his Father, making himself equal with God."

 

In John 8:58, when quizzed about how he has special knowledge of Abraham, Jesus replies, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am"—invoking and applying to himself the personal name of God—"I Am" (Ex. 3:14). His audience understood exactly what he was claiming about himself. "So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple" (John 8:59).

 

In John 20:28, Thomas falls at Jesus’ feet, exclaiming, "My Lord and my God!" (Greek: Ho Kurios mou kai ho Theos mou—literally, "The Lord of me and the God of me!")

 

In Philippians 2:6, Paul tells us that Christ Jesus "[w]ho, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped" (New International Version). So Jesus chose to be born in humble, human form though he could have simply remained in equal glory with the Father for he was "in very nature God."

 

Also significant are passages that apply the title "the First and the Last" to Jesus. This is one of the Old Testament titles of Yahweh: "Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Yahweh of armies: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god’" (Is. 44:6; cf. 41:4, 48:12).

 

This title is directly applied to Jesus three times in the book of Revelation: "When I saw him [Christ], I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, ‘Fear not, I am the First and the Last’" (Rev. 1:17). "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life’" (Rev. 2:8). "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end" (Rev. 22:12–13).

 

This last quote is especially significant since it applies to Jesus the parallel title "the Alpha and the Omega," which Revelation earlier applied to the Lord God: "‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty" (Rev. 1:8).

 

As the following quotes show, the early Church Fathers also recognized that Jesus Christ is God and were adamant in maintaining this precious truth.

 

But, even bigger, IMO, and more difficult to understand is The Trinity, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Three parts of One.

It's something you have to decide for yourself. I think in the end if you look at everything with an open mind, and choose to look at facts, your conscience will guide you to it.

Gooch,

 

Becareful reading these post and becareful reading the Bible. When MAN starts using the words in the Bible they sometimes use them to benefit them. In other words interpret them wrong.

 

I hate that I am not equipped enough to help you undertsand the Bible. The good thing is I am learning every day in reading it for what it says. I try hard not to try and interpret what it means.

 

I can tell you on a personal level my life has changed greatly since I became a believer in Christ. I undertsand how to be a husband, father, and person. Like I said earlier you don't have to be perfect. Your heart just has to be pure.

Ace...Matthew 25:31:46....Jesus speaks about different groups like Sheep/goats. The Judgement between these two groups. His goal is for people to enter his kingdom. This Judgement will happen in the "Great White Throne" which I mentioned earlier in looking up Revelation 20:11:15.

 

This will determine who will be allowed to enter heaven (eternal Kingdom) or enter enternal punishment in Hell.

 

There are different levels of Rewards in heaven, and those who served without thinking of those rewards will have greater. God only gives what Man deserves, but first he has to see that Man made the choice between Light and Darkness. Its not God's decision, but Mans.

 

Now, lets look at Revelation 3..."I know your deeds...Wake up! and hear and obey. Repent. But if you stay asleep I will come like a thief in the nite".

 

Chapter 20:12...And I saw the dead, great and small standing before the throne. ( see earlier) and BOOKS were opened. Another book was opened the Book of Life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books."

 

The basis of works is also seen throughout the Bible (book) Romans 2:6:1Peter 1:17 are easy to find.

 

Thanks for giving me something to do this disabilty is boring.

Ace...Matthew 25:31:46....Jesus speaks about different groups like Sheep/goats. The Judgement between these two groups. His goal is for people to enter his kingdom. This Judgement will happen in the "Great White Throne" which I mentioned earlier in looking up Revelation 20:11:15.

 

This will determine who will be allowed to enter heaven (eternal Kingdom) or enter enternal punishment in Hell.

 

There are different levels of Rewards in heaven, and those who served without thinking of those rewards will have greater. God only gives what Man deserves, but first he has to see that Man made the choice between Light and Darkness. Its not God's decision, but Mans.

 

Now, lets look at Revelation 3..."I know your deeds...Wake up! and hear and obey. Repent. But if you stay asleep I will come like a thief in the nite".

 

Chapter 20:12...And I saw the dead, great and small standing before the throne. ( see earlier) and BOOKS were opened. Another book was opened the Book of Life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books."

 

The basis of works is also seen throughout the Bible (book) Romans 2:6:1Peter 1:17 are easy to find.

 

Thanks for giving me something to do this disabilty is boring.

 

Curious how that relates to Jesus' own parable about the vineyard in Matthew. In that parable all the workers, regardless of when they were employed, were paid the exact same wage. When the longer hour workers grumbled the master said, "You got what you contracted for. Is it not mine to give out as I see fit?"

Curious how that relates to Jesus' own parable about the vineyard in Matthew. In that parable all the workers, regardless of when they were employed, were paid the exact same wage. When the longer hour workers grumbled the master said, "You got what you contracted for. Is it not mine to give out as I see fit?"

 

 

Now see where we are. Hatz makes a good point and someone will have to refute it.

 

I say it is okay for AL to believe that there are different rewards in heaven and for Hatz to say, well here is scripture that refutes that. Larry is basing his belief on his experience in life and his study of the scripture as is Hatz as have I several times.

 

For me, however, I don't have to continue to show that I am RIGHT. I have faith that I am, and I trust that God has led me to this place. 10 years from now I hope to have a better understanding and may not be in the same place.

 

I think we have simply confirmed Gooch's struggle in that Christians get more concerned about being right than about serving GOD by serving people.

 

I do believe that Jesus is way to heaven, he has shown us the path by the life that he led and the things that he taught - obedience and service unto death. I think he is saddened when we are so adamant about the legalities of the scripture that we turn people away and disassociate ourselves from others. Jesus wants the big tent and he wants people to grow and to learn but he, I believe, does not want people to come to Heaven because they are afraid of going to Hell. He was people to grow in a relationship with Him and with their fellow humans so that we bring God's kingdom to earth. I also believe that Jesus can accomodate Himself, through God's creation, to those who have never heard the name of Jesus, or have grown up in a completely different faith tradition . . .

 

I really don't think Jesus want me to say to Gooch or anyone else - "Believe in Jesus as the Savior, or you are going to Hell." If that was the case why didn't he say that to the woman at the well, or to the woman who was being stoned? What he did was tell them to go and sin no more, or if I may paraphrase to live a life that is pleasing to God and in service to humans that does them no harm. We Christians get so caught up on that word sin that we don't look to what Jesus was saying.

 

What does Jesus want me to tell The Gooch????

God loves you, just as you are. God wants whats best for you and wants you to live a full life. I think my life if fuller because of my relationship with Jesus and my effort to emulate His life. A life of radical service to others, not seeking power, but poring myself out for the good of others with little concern for my own wellbeing, even to the point of death. Why don't you come have conversations with me about the Jesus I know and the God I understand. I will listen to what you know and understand and will not work to change your mind, but maybe, both of us will grow in our understanding of God and each other and in turn we will also grow in love of each other because neither of us is trying to be RIGHT, but to grow.

Ace, I will not "refute" what my good brother said but scripture will.

 

First I'll start a new thread the first of the week, but lets see four verses.

 

1st Corinthians 3:8 "The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and EACH will be REWARDED according to his own labor.

 

Will Billy Graham recieve the same Reward as me?

 

Next verse but keep reading in chapter 3, but read 17 closely. 2nd Corinthians 5:10..."For WE ALL must appear before the judgement seat of Christ, that each one may RECIEVE what is due to him, for things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

 

Revelation 2 19... I know your deeds, your love and faith, your service and persevrance, and that you are now doing more than you did at first.

 

And last for now..Revelation 22 :12 "Behold, I am coming soon. My REWARD is with me, and I will GIVE to EVERYONE ACCORDING to what he has done."

 

Matthew 20 talks about working just to recieve a reward and whether a man would get one compared to a 25 year old accepting Christ and living a full Christian life compared to a man who recieved Christ late in his life. Its been fun.