And for the record, I didn't have a HUGE problem with President Bush until Iraq. I objected vehemently to our handling of things post 9/11. But while I didn't agree lockstep with him, I could live with his administration. However, if we are talking about lies, I personally feel the Bush administration lied to us about Iraq, and it has cost American lives, destabalized the Middle East and we are inextricably tied to the problems there forever. If AHCA is a "lie", I can certainly live with it in comparison.

 

I would probably agree with you if it wasn't for the fact that, during the Clinton Administration, there were several cases where, Bill, Hillary, Al Gore and Sec of State Madeline Albright all stated on video (used to be able to find it on Youtube, may still be able to) that Iraq had Weapons of Mass Destruction so I don't think it is unreasoanble to believe that W. went into office believing that Iraq had them and we had intelligence to back it up those beliefs and it wasn't until we were deep into the war that it was proven that W., Bill, Hillary, Al, Madeline and the intelligence community were all wrong all along. Wrong or they were moved out of the country. I say that because I believe a news bit was released a few weeks ago where ISIS was found with WMDs and many in the military said they appeared to almost identical to those Saddam used against the Kurds before the war. Also, after it was discovered that there were no WMDs, didn't the Director of the CIA resign but not voluntarily? If he was fired to be a scape goat, I would have to assume that would have been out by now.

 

So, if any of the above is true, I think it could be possible that Bush was duped (like many others were) rather than he lied.

And the ones who died keeping us all free....

One thing that's always bothered me about amnesty is rewarding those who broke our laws and placing them ahead of those who are in line trying to come in the legal way. Just doesn't seem right to me. I think there should be some type of financial penalty attached to any amnesty.

 

I think that's at least a fair consideration to discuss. I definitely can see where you're coming from with it. I agree it seems unfair. I do, though, also feel that as Bert said, desperation is a very powerful motivator. After reading some indepth accounts of people who have arrived illegally, a lot of people have given far more $ to get here illegally than we would likely require as a "fine". And there are untold numbers who've either never made it, or died.

Kentucky Consumer Protection law:

 

367.170 Unlawful acts.

(1) Unfair, false, misleading, or deceptive acts or practices in the conduct of any trade or commerce are hereby declared unlawful.

(2) For the purposes of this section, unfair shall be construed to mean unconscionable.

 

 

Is what was done well beyond just political lying? Since it deals with a PRODUCT that is mandatory to purchase has Kentucky Law been openly and directly violated?

Lots of immigrants have died trying to get here.. And yet we citizens born and raised here that have no respect for the Constitution and what it represents..

That's a horrible analogy. :lol2:

That's because that's how stupid it sounds when someone says giving amnesty to those already here is a different issue than securing our borders when it's such a huge number. What part of we can't sustain this don't you people understand?

And there is a very specific method for updating and changing it, and it's not Executive fiat.

Bingo!

 

PP's just trying to stir it up . Old White people who were slave owners yada yada and yada .. Maybe you ought to start an old, white, illegal immigrant appreciation thread for the 10's of thousands that died freeing your ____ .

Yahtzee!

I think that's at least a fair consideration to discuss. I definitely can see where you're coming from with it. I agree it seems unfair. I do, though, also feel that as Bert said, desperation is a very powerful motivator. After reading some indepth accounts of people who have arrived illegally, a lot of people have given far more $ to get here illegally than we would likely require as a "fine". And there are untold numbers who've either never made it, or died.

 

No doubt that many have paid high costs, including the ultimate cost. Still, if we hope to control the process down the road at some point there still must be some price paid when they make it here. To do otherwise opens the door to all those going through legal proceedings to start to wonder why they bothered, and perhaps adding even more numbers to the rolls. That and why have any laws if we're not going to enforce them? I speed and have a wreck, I still get a ticket for failure to control my vehicle.

PP's just trying to stir it up . Old White people who were slave owners yada yada and yada .. Maybe you ought to start an old, white, illegal immigrant appreciation thread for the 10's of thousands that died freeing your ____ .

 

Don't hold your breath on that one. Last I saw unarmed black people are still at risk in today's society.

Don't hold your breath on that one. Last I saw unarmed black people are still at risk in today's society.

Nah, media has their back.

No doubt that many have paid high costs, including the ultimate cost. Still, if we hope to control the process down the road at some point there still must be some price paid when they make it here. To do otherwise opens the door to all those going through legal proceedings to start to wonder why they bothered, and perhaps adding even more numbers to the rolls. That and why have any laws if we're not going to enforce them? I speed and have a wreck, I still get a ticket for failure to control my vehicle.

 

 

I guess I feel that, continuing with your analogy, very few are actually dissuaded by the prospect of a fine. While yes, we impose them and collect them, for the people who get tickets of any sort, does it actually stop them from repeating the behavior? I do feel that those here illegally, if granted amnesty with a fine would pay it. I think I failed to finish my thought, which was meant to point out that after the ordeal of getting here, whatever fine we imposed would be nominal in their eyes.

It's worked great until this POTUS.

 

It is what this country was founded on. I take personal offense to your statement considering I served my country and swore to uphold and protect it. In my jobs after I got out of the military I also took an oath to uphold and protect it also.

 

Land of the free, home of the brave. I take great offense to some of your statements as well.

Nah, media has their back.

 

:lol2: :lol2:

 

But I'm blind. :lol2:

:lol2: :lol2:

 

But I'm blind. :lol2:

Glad you didn't take me serious. :lol2:

I would probably agree with you if it wasn't for the fact that, during the Clinton Administration, there were several cases where, Bill, Hillary, Al Gore and Sec of State Madeline Albright all stated on video (used to be able to find it on Youtube, may still be able to) that Iraq had Weapons of Mass Destruction so I don't think it is unreasoanble to believe that W. went into office believing that Iraq had them and we had intelligence to back it up those beliefs and it wasn't until we were deep into the war that it was proven that W., Bill, Hillary, Al, Madeline and the intelligence community were all wrong all along. Wrong or they were moved out of the country. I say that because I believe a news bit was released a few weeks ago where ISIS was found with WMDs and many in the military said they appeared to almost identical to those Saddam used against the Kurds before the war. Also, after it was discovered that there were no WMDs, didn't the Director of the CIA resign but not voluntarily? If he was fired to be a scape goat, I would have to assume that would have been out by now.

 

So, if any of the above is true, I think it could be possible that Bush was duped (like many others were) rather than he lied.

 

I know what you say about the previous administration's assertions. And I'll concede that MAYBE he was duped. But at the time of the decision, the UN inspectors had confirmed NO WMD. We (America) basically cut their inspection short and went in, telling the American people that the inspectors were incompetent (at best). We were still lied to, in my opinion. And we should have practiced restraint. I feel (no proof) that President Bush wanted to make a huge statement in the wake of 9/11 and that he brushed prudence aside to accomplish his goal. Whether he was duped or lied to himself, I feel he lied to us about his motives.