I'd imagine that it's analogous to why lots of districts "draw" instead of seeding. There are more small schools with no chance of winning state unless it's classified (not that they really have a shot at that either, but it's a better shot at least). The big schools probably don't care, and some of the schools in divisions that are equivalent to A, AA, and AAA football teams in Kentucky don't want it to go back because they know they'd have a much harder time winning state.

 

Once you go, it seems like it'd be difficult to "un-ring the bell".

 

Few districts draw. Almost all seed. But if "everyone" (fans, coaches, players) thinks the old way was better then simply change it back. The key is not "everyone" thinks the old way was better. Obviously there are enough people content with how Indiana does it now and enough people in the 47 other states are content with how their tournament is conducted to not change it. Obviously the people of KY are content with how Track and Cross Country and Football are conducted in the state of KY or it would change.

Few districts draw. Almost all seed. But if "everyone" (fans, coaches, players) thinks the old way was better then simply change it back. The key is not "everyone" thinks the old way was better. Obviously there are enough people content with how Indiana does it now and enough people in the 47 other states are content with how their tournament is conducted to not change it. Obviously the people of KY are content with how Track and Cross Country and Football are conducted in the state of KY or it would change.

 

To be fair, not all States give a flip about basketball. Kentucky, Indiana, and North Carolina are probably the only states where high school basketball is taken as seriously as it is state-wide.

 

Also, in Kentucky, there are no truly "large" metro areas (i.e., think a city with three or four professional sports teams or one that's top 25 in the nation in population (and before people bring up Louisville, if other cities counted their population the way they did, their rank would fall). The differentials in population from town to town or county to county (and in effect, schools) aren't so vast.

 

We aren't a state like Illinois, which has Chicago (the 3rd largest city in the U.S.), then a few other towns that may be the size of Lexington or Louisville, then not much else. They need to classify basketball because the difference in population between the Chicago publics and basically anywhere else just don't make a level playing field at all. I'd say that applies to separating between school population or public/privates because of the amount of resources they possess compared to other schools (e.g., disposable income at some of the Chicago privates because of the salaries of the parents who send their kids there or boosters who support things like fund-raising). The playing field would not be fair at all if the Chicago privates could basically recruit kids from the city to come play for them (i.e., Farragut Academy which had Kevin Garnett and Ronnie Fields on the same team... Fields was supposedly better than Garnett but broke his neck in a car wreck... despite missing part of his senior season he was still the #3 scorer in Chicago Public School history. There's some great highlights of his that I can share sometime, but I digress).

 

 

 

More importantly, I also think there's a difference in "everyone" as you describe it and the way votes on things like that would be calculated.

A school like Mason County can probably draw 3,000 fans to a game, but, if the matter is voted on by each member school, they would have 1 vote. A school like Redbird might draw 200 fans to a game, but they have the same 1 vote as a member school that Mason County has.

 

I'm guessing that if you took a vote of Indiana fans who payed to see the state tournament (both ways), which are, in effect, the people that actually matter as far as revenue goes for intents and purposes of what most people are trying to say from an economic perspective in this debate, and you probably get a far different final tally on the matter.

I would have to disagree about KY and Indiana and North Carolina being the only states that take basketball seriously state-wide. I would think Tennessee, New Jersey, New York, Illinois, Ohio, Michigan, Virginia and Pennsylvania could all lay claim to that also just to mention a few. Heck lets face it Kentucky produces more premier D1 football talent than basketball talent anymore.

I would have to disagree about KY and Indiana and North Carolina being the only states that take basketball seriously state-wide. I would think Tennessee, New Jersey, New York, Illinois, Ohio, Michigan, Virginia and Pennsylvania could all lay claim to that also just to mention a few. Heck lets face it Kentucky produces more premier D1 football talent than basketball talent anymore.

 

 

I understand the point you are making about D1 talent (especially compared to football), but I don't think that's really super-relevant to the discussion of how much people in the average community care about their teams.

 

Also, in New York, Illinois, Pennsylvania, and Virginia, there are huge metro areas that dwarf the population of the rest of the towns in the states (Pennsylvania being the only one that has two in Philadelphia and Pittsburgh). I think it's difficult to expect that the smaller towns in places like upstate New York try to compete with teams from NYC unless they are able to recruit and offer scholarships/financial aid.

 

In Tennessee, you have a different dynamic than Kentucky because many of their top teams are separated from the rest because they are elite, nationally renowned boarding schools who offer scholarships to athletes to cover their cost of attendance. Same for New Jersey.

 

Even still, I think of places like Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Tennessee as states which care about football first and foremost. You'll have a hard time convincing me that Ohio isn't a "football state" above all else. I will say that the area of Memphis is probably the one place in Tennessee where basketball could be viewed with the same or more passion as football. Take a kid or community in the rural areas of Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, or Tennessee and you're probably going to get someone who puts more emphasis on football than basketball.

 

 

At the end of the day, I'll give you New York and Michigan have a lot of areas where high school basketball is king or at least has as much emphasis placed on it as high school basketball as in Kentucky, Indiana, and North Carolina. I say New York because the inner-city doesn't exactly have a ton of places to construct football fields. I say Michigan because (both New York and) Detroit's climate(s) are so cold that it probably makes more kids attracted to an indoor sport like basketball).

 

I'll respectfully disagree with the importance of Pennsylvania (at least anywhere outside of Philadelphia), Ohio, Virginia (outside of D.C.), and New Jersey (outside of following the elite privates in the metro areas, some of which draw kids from across the nation). I think Kentucky, Indiana, and North Carolina are different from these because you are more likely to find someone out in the rural areas who closely follows basketball at the high school level. In those three states, you are probably either nearly just as likely or more likely to find someone in a rural area who closely follows high school basketball as you are at the more urban levels.

 

The fact that many of these places have huge areas like D.C., NYC, Philly where basketball is king only furthers the explanation that they probably classify out of necessity because you can't really expect some of the rural places in those States to possibly compete with the schools in a metro area that's one of the 10 biggest in the nation.

 

Kentucky doesn't really have that. Without looking up stats, I'd imagine that the population density is likely to be distributed more evenly (if nothing else, the population in schools is), and that because of that, there is more parity in the competition.

In all seriousness, I considered including Highlands. I think that if basketball were classified, they'd end up being a really good program in short order.

 

Honestly, with their new hire, I think they'll eventually be good again anyway, and the NKY's 4A programs, with a core of Covington Catholic and Holmes already, would be one of the stronger ones in the State, all things considered.

 

Things wouldn't be interesting for you though, Lawnboy, because I think your Breds would roll through the area's 2A in most years. That was one of the classes that probably had the least depth in top teams, and each of the top teams are in a different geographic area, so they'd likely each get to the "Final Four" part of the tournament and sort things out from there.

 

We would petition the KHSAA to "move-up". :lol2:

If the "old way" is so much better what is stopping Indiana from switching back to the way it was?

 

Oh that's an easy one. Because the people that "matter", that could get it changed in the first place wanted to do it, and those that could now change it back, simply don't want to. First of all you'd have to admit it was a mistake, which most joe sixpack basketball fans in IN will tell you it was. And the state tournament attendance numbers I have heard from many different sources bear this out as well. I have also been told that not only has it hurt state tournament attendance, but it has even hurt regular season attendance and many schools as well. I went to watch Jeffersonville High, top 20 team in Indiana play Christian Academy of Indiana at Jeffersonville back in December as Jeffersonville was our 1st round opponent in a tournament we were playing in. Cavernous arena, seats over 5,000 fans. Place was darn near empty. I know that's very anecdotal, and it could have nothing to do with classification, but it's not what you would expect to see historically when talking about Indiana basketball.

 

We played in a 16 team fairly prestigious tournament in Richmond Indiana at the first of the year (think the Republic Bank Classic at Lex Cath). 4 or 5 Indiana overall top 20 teams there, and other top teams in their respective class. Held in Richmond High's home arena, seats over 8,100 fans...massive place. Hardly a soul there for most games. Again, completely anecdotal evidence, and the weather was bad which could have hurt attendance as well, but definitely very underwhelming for what is or used to be a rabid high school basketball state.

I'd imagine that it's analogous to why lots of districts "draw" instead of seeding. There are more small schools with no chance of winning state unless it's classified (not that they really have a shot at that either, but it's a better shot at least). The big schools probably don't care, and some of the schools in divisions that are equivalent to A, AA, and AAA football teams in Kentucky don't want it to go back because they know they'd have a much harder time winning state.

 

Once you go, it seems like it'd be difficult to "un-ring the bell".

Based on this then it seems that most of the "teams" like the new set up better. It could be that the "Fans" like the old way better. IMO the tourney is for the kids, not the adults.

Based on this then it seems that most of the "teams" like the new set up better. It could be that the "Fans" like the old way better. IMO the tourney is for the kids, not the adults.

 

While that is true (for the kids), it's the fans that spend the $$$ to have the type of State Tourney the KHSAA has currently at Rupp, as without the fans $$$ there is no games at Rupp and without the fans and their $$$ is there a Track, Cross Country and I could go on State Tourney. While I hate it's this way, it's the truth, money talks!

This is exactly what I think would happen to Kentucky High School Basketball, probably within 10 or so years, if the tournaments were classified. First, a few teams would dominated each class and the attendance would end up being more similar to football than basketball.

 

 

 

IF it went to classes, here's a guess at the schools who'd dominate each class (in their area/at state... assuming that each class would play it's state-qualifiers according to regional location):

 

 

A:

University Heights (WKY)

Hazard*, Paintsville (EKY)

 

AA:

Bardstown (WKY)

Newport Central Catholic, (NKY)

DeSales**, (L'ville)

Somerset, Shelby Valley (EKY)

 

AAA:

Mason County, (NKY)

Paducah Tilghman, Elizabethtown (WKY)

Corbin (EKY)

 

AAAA:

Covington Catholic, Holmes (NKY)

Owensboro, Collins, Doss (WKY)

Boyle County (CKY)

Clay County, Ashland Blazer, Johnson Central (EKY)

 

AAAAA:

Apollo, Graves County, Warren Central, Hopkinsville, Christian County (WKY)

Shelby County, Montgomery County (CKY)

Perry County Central (EKY)

 

AAAAAA:

Graves County, Henderson County (WKY)

Ballard, Male, Trinity (L'ville)

Scott County, Henry Clay (Lex)

 

 

*I would think more kids from PCC would eventually go to Hazard to compete for State.

 

**Good teams through the years, would really be helped by classes (maybe more than anyone)

 

 

I think that when implementing classes, logistically, one of two things would happen:

1. The "districts/regionals" that teams would play to qualify for state would, like football, be grouped according to school's geographic locations. This would mean that, in most years, a school like Mason County would roll through their area and make it to the state's "Final Four" basically every year. Fans start taking this for granted and attendance suffers.

 

2. The aforementioned "districts/regionals" that qualify teams for state become a logistical nightmare, especially in regards to trying to play a tournament (only a day or two between games), as schools like Corbin in far EKY could end up playing Paducah Tilghman (in far WKY). Even a neutral location in the middle for each of these schools is a heck of a drive for each of them. What do you do about the kids missing school, etc.? Or do you have it over a weekend at a college campus, say WKU? How many fans can afford to get a hotel for a weekend tournament, then do the same the very next week when state moves to Lexington?

 

I have zero interest in seeing basketball classified like that, but I will point out that I think it would be a good thing for Beechwood basketball. Beechwood has only lost 6 games to 1A schools since 2007.

Based on this then it seems that most of the "teams" like the new set up better. It could be that the "Fans" like the old way better. IMO the tourney is for the kids, not the adults.

 

Know what you're saying, just think that it's kind of like Theoldguy said in reply. Without the $$$, the rent for Rupp doesn't get paid and the Lexington Center might not feel very charitable.

 

I don't know if it gets to the point where other sports are eliminated like he was implying, but I do think that the lease/rent on Rupp doesn't come cheap. Seeing the state tournament being held there would likely be the first casualty if attendance declined.

I have zero interest in seeing basketball classified like that, but I will point out that I think it would be a good thing for Beechwood basketball. Beechwood has only lost 6 games to 1A schools since 2007.

 

Agree. If they made it similar to football classifications, there is a whole host of issues associated with actually having a basketball tournament. In football, it's one game per week. More schools play basketball because it's easier and less expensive to field a team.

 

Having classes and trying to run a basketball tournament, where there is only a day or two between games would be a nightmare. We're talking about missing classes, hotels, neutral sites to reserve, etc.

 

I do think that if the tournament went to classes, you'd probably see the some of the football schools that aren't necessarily good at basketball right now slowly become better.

Based on this then it seems that most of the "teams" like the new set up better. It could be that the "Fans" like the old way better. IMO the tourney is for the kids, not the adults.

 

And who do you think the "fans" are of high school basketball? In large part, guys (and in some cases gals) who grew up playing the game in Indiana and now hate to see what's happened to it. I'd say their voice carries as much weight if not more than anyone else's point of view, especially when you add in the fact as mentioned above they are the ones now paying to go see the games...or NOT paying to go see the games now as is more the case.

I dont feel that it will ever be split in the state. Like mentioned earlier, there are simply too few "private" schools that are KHSAA members to have a private championship in each sport. These schools vary in number too much & would eliminate about 95% of the other private schools from having any chance of winning anything honestly.

 

These types of public/private debates are always interesting & entertaining to hear different perspectives. I just showed up too late with my popcorn on this one.

 

Do the kids that go to the private schools go there to get a Christian Education or to play sports? It wouldn't matter if that were the argument how many schools were left to play in the private division.

In Jefferson co. A lot of the public schools are not on the academic level as the privates. So a student should be penalized for not wanting to go to a horrible school. This debate is comical to me. Everything thing people accuse the private schools of doing; public schools do more of it. To be honest no one cares about Beth haven or Portland Christian. Yet if it was only allowed to play private schools they would not be able to form teams. It comes down to maybe 5-8 private schools that is making everyone all up set.

Stumbled across this thread and was very intriged. Has anyones views changed on the matter?

 

I say the sooner we get to classes in basketball the better.

 

Should private schools have their own class? Absolutely!!