What does murder have to do with religion? You are either for preventing the taking of innocent life or you aren't. I am far from a religious person but I think protecting innocent life should be society as a whole job and standard. Otherwise we are just picking and choosing what murders we accept.

 

Again, until a fetus is legally considered a life, it's NOT MURDER. So I'm assuming you think anyone who has an abortion should be thrown in jail for murder?

Except for the fact that there's no proof that it's another life. That's the whole point. While my faith thinks it is a life, and I think it's a life, laws are based on facts and proof. That's the way our legal system works. Until their is proof that an unborn fetus is a life (which I think it is), you can't claim it as murder, not legally anyways.

 

I understand some aren't able to separate "church" & "state", but I am. I will never let my religious beliefs cloud my judgement or views on political and legal issues. It's disgusting that people think they should be able to legislate their morality, but people who believe differently should have to follow their religious rules.

We all know after 9 months what that "fetus" becomes and you are either for the right for that person to live or you are not. By a fetus being considered a life by law do you mean when a pregnant mother being murdered and the murderer being charged with double homicide? The precedent is there. So again you are either for defending innocent life or you aren't.

We all know after 9 months what that "fetus" becomes and you are either for the right for that person to live or you are not. By a fetus being considered a life by law do you mean when a pregnant mother being murdered and the murderer being charged with double homicide? The precedent is there. So again you are either for defending innocent life or you aren't.

 

I'm pretty sure that depends on how far along they are? There is a certain point, and abortions are illegal past that point, that the fetus is considered a person. Until that point is changed to conception murder it isn't.

 

You do realize that not all people believe it's a life, right? So yes, it's completely possible for someone to be pro-choice, and be a defendant of innocent life. It's not a black and white issue like many try to make it.

Again, until a fetus is legally considered a life, it's NOT MURDER. So I'm assuming you think anyone who has an abortion should be thrown in jail for murder?

 

In the state of Kentucky, for example:

 

507A.050 Fetal homicide in the fourth degree.

(1) A person is guilty of fetal homicide in the fourth degree when, with recklessness, he causes the death of an unborn child.

(2) Fetal homicide in the fourth degree is a Class D felony.

Effective: February 20, 2004

History: Created 2004 Ky. Acts ch. 1, sec. 5, effective February 20, 2004.

 

So a fetus is legally considered a life! Unfortunately, there is 507A.010 Definitions -- Exceptions which basically says none of the other statutes (including 507A.050) apply to abortion, health care providers acting reasonably, and pregnant women causing the death of their own unborn child.

 

It is an education issue. We have a double standard. How can it be murder in one situation, but not another?

Except for the fact that there's no proof that it's another life. That's the whole point. While my faith thinks it is a life, and I think it's a life, laws are based on facts and proof. That's the way our legal system works. Until their is proof that an unborn fetus is a life (which I think it is), you can't claim it as murder, not legally anyways.

 

I see where you are coming from but I see two problems with the the arguement. The first being that laws are based upon facts and proof. If that were true, why are some counties in KY dry and some are wet? It is not possible to prove that the sale of alcohol has an overall negative affect on society. The laws on the sale of alcohol are primarily based upon opinions, emotions and people's view on how much should public safety impede others rights to buy alcohol.

 

The second problem I see with the arguement is the assumption that it is even possible to prove a fetus is a life. When life begins is a HUGE matter of opinion that really can never be proven. Similar to if I believe painting A is more beautiful than painting B. You and I could argue all day long and point out certain attributes but not neccessarily prove one way or the other. I have always viewed the "prove a fetus is a life" arguement as a ploy by the Pro Choice movement to set up the Pro Life Movement to prove something that the Pro Choice Movement already knows really cannot ever be proven. On the flip side, can they prove that a fetus IS NOT A LIFE? Nope, it goes both ways.

I'm pretty sure that depends on how far along they are? There is a certain point, and abortions are illegal past that point, that the fetus is considered a person. Until that point is changed to conception murder it isn't.

 

Isn't partial birth abortion still (unfortunately) legal? If so, the law only recognizes the child as a life when its entire body is outside the mother.

I would never tell someone that they aren't what they say they are. If you consider yourself Catholic, you're Catholic.

 

I'm with you. I'm Catholic. I'm not perfect. I'm raising my kids to be Catholic. I'm not perfect at that either. (Although 2 of my kids got Honorable Mentions on their pro-life essays, so we might be doing something right. :lol2:)

 

I don't care much for the "Catholic Police" mentality. So I don't care much for this particular bumper sticker.

 

I do like the bumper stickers that say things like, "Abortion stops a beating heart." Because it does.

And, "Aren't you glad your mom chose life?" Because I am.

I'm pretty sure that depends on how far along they are? There is a certain point, and abortions are illegal past that point, that the fetus is considered a person. Until that point is changed to conception murder it isn't.

 

You do realize that not all people believe it's a life, right? So yes, it's completely possible for someone to be pro-choice, and be a defendant of innocent life. It's not a black and white issue like many try to make it.

I'm sorry I must of given you the wrong impression. What other people believe doesn't affect my beliefs or convictions. I believe there is life at conception. I do not care if that offends anyone. I believe it is murder. If you don't again I don't care. I don't care if I hurt feelings if it saves an innocent life. In my 10 years coming and going on this board I normally stay away from this issue. But the fact you called yourself pro-life and by definition you are pro-choice I wanted to help you understand the difference.

I didn't think I was ambiguous, but I don't know how to answer more completely. Simply put, the answer to guru's question is "yes".

82 percent of Catholics believe that birth control (the pill) is morally acceptable.

89 percent of all Americans believe that birth control is morally acceptable.

90 percent of non-Catholics believe that birth control is morally acceptable.

Only 15 percent of Catholics believe that birth control is morally wrong.

--Source: Gallup poll, May 2012.

82 percent of Catholics believe that birth control (the pill) is morally acceptable.

89 percent of all Americans believe that birth control is morally acceptable.

90 percent of non-Catholics believe that birth control is morally acceptable.

Only 15 percent of Catholics believe that birth control is morally wrong.

--Source: Gallup poll, May 2012.

 

We are taught is morally wrong. Whether one chooses to follow the teaching is irrelevant to what we are taught is the Church's position, and our direction.

To get back to the original questions, Can you be both Catholic and Pro Choice? Well, I guess in reality anyone who is a baptised Catholic can call themselves a Catholic even if they disagree with numerous Catholic Dogmas/Doctrines and never attend church on Sundays. I think the question could be reworded to say, If you are Catholic and do not agree with one or more Dogmas/Doctrines of the Church (abortion, embryonic stem cell research, gay marriage, women as priests, etc.), are you obligated to deeply study the reasons for the Church Dogma/Doctrine in an honest attempt to reconcile to that teaching? I would say the answer is yes. However, that would make a really long bumper sticker. Related to this, if you are Catholic and you do not agree with a Discipline of the Churche (celibacy of priests for example) are you obligated to study the reasons for the Church Discipline in an honest attempt to reconcile to that teaching? Ummmm, I guess not but even though you are not obligated to do so, I would say you should just for understanding your faith better.

In the state of Kentucky, for example:

 

507A.050 Fetal homicide in the fourth degree.

(1) A person is guilty of fetal homicide in the fourth degree when, with recklessness, he causes the death of an unborn child.

(2) Fetal homicide in the fourth degree is a Class D felony.

Effective: February 20, 2004

History: Created 2004 Ky. Acts ch. 1, sec. 5, effective February 20, 2004.

 

So a fetus is legally considered a life! Unfortunately, there is 507A.010 Definitions -- Exceptions which basically says none of the other statutes (including 507A.050) apply to abortion, health care providers acting reasonably, and pregnant women causing the death of their own unborn child.

 

It is an education issue. We have a double standard. How can it be murder in one situation, but not another?

 

:thumb:

 

Scott Peterson was convicted of murdering two people. His wife, Laci & also their unborn son.

I am pro-life from the moral sense but, as I've stated numerous times on here, I can't support a law that jails a woman for having an abortion. I'd tell them not to have the abortion and consider other options but I'm not going to suggest they should go to jail.

 

I also disagree with the Church's view on gay marriage.

 

Not 100% sure convinced one way or the other on female priests.

 

I don't look at birth control as evil.

 

In other words, I'm Catholic.

^ Haven't you previously criticized others for taking that position?

^ Haven't you previously criticized others for taking that position?

 

I have said that you can't be pro-DP and pro-life. I have said that you can't be for anti-abortion and then have "unless...."

 

So I may need your question re-worded in order to answer it completely.