It is true that they will say that, but I think there's a difference. It is also true that many Christians will continue to say that they are a liar or a thief even after they've changed. The thought is the same - to remember what you were to help you stay on the right path. The motivation would be completely different.

 

From the other side, if a former alcoholic has been sober for years, I do not view them as an alcoholic any longer. If a homosexual abstained from relationships, I'd still view them as a homosexual.

I totally understand your argument. However, how would you consider a former homosexual that has since entered into a hetero relationship. Still a homosexual?

From the other side, if a former alcoholic has been sober for years, I do not view them as an alcoholic any longer. If a homosexual abstained from relationships, I'd still view them as a homosexual.

 

I think in both instances, you have an individual struggling with a specific sin. The internal struggle will always be there (sin nature), regardless of the outward action. I don't see the difference that you do.

 

"The good that I want to do, I don't do. The evil that I don't want to do, this is what I find myself doing." That's probably not a precise quotation of Romans 7, but it's pretty close. The general idea is that there will always be a pull toward sin for humans because we're all infected with an inclination toward doing what is wrong.

I totally understand your argument. However, how would you consider a former homosexual that has since entered into a hetero relationship. Still a homosexual?

 

Bisexual...:idunno:

I totally understand your argument. However, how would you consider a former homosexual that has since entered into a hetero relationship. Still a homosexual?

 

Bisexual...:idunno:

Or maybe..."Give-it-a-trisexual."

For a person to be born with an attraction to the same sex, which we think is sinful, doesn't seem fair. Just briefly imagine if it was the other way around and heterosexuality was viewed as sinful. The problem is, the fairness we think of is a subjective, human idea. I don't think it is fair that I'm born with a sinful nature. I'd rather not be this way. But, life isn't fair. Anyone with any experience knows that.

 

Exactly. And that is why I know that homosexuality is not a "Born" condition. It is very clear that the Bible condemns homosexuality (no on really disputes that fact they more dispute whether or not the Bible is true) and since God would not create sin because he is God, we can deduce that God did not create said person homosexual.

 

Do you understand my take? Not agree, but understand?

It is true that they will say that, but I think there's a difference. It is also true that many Christians will continue to say that they are a liar or a thief even after they've changed. .

 

But do people claim to be BORN a liar or BORN a thief? Do thieves and liars attempt to have their sins accepted and affirmed by society?

I totally understand your argument. However, how would you consider a former homosexual that has since entered into a hetero relationship. Still a homosexual?

 

I thought about that. But, just to be clear, I'm not attempting to defend or justify anything. I'm just trying to explain why I think this particular issue seems a little different when trying to address than some others. In the end, things are the way they are and there's nothing we can do about it. We have to play the hand we're dealt. Some babies are born addicted to drugs. Would that make it acceptable for them to use drugs since they were born that way?

 

As to your question, I suppose it boils down to one question - what makes a person homosexual? An attraction to the opposite sex? Or, acting upon an attraction to the opposite sex?

But do people claim to be BORN a liar or BORN a thief? Do thieves and liars attempt to have their sins accepted and affirmed by society?

 

Read Post #223.

Exactly. And that is why I know that homosexuality is not a "Born" condition. It is very clear that the Bible condemns homosexuality (no on really disputes that fact they more dispute whether or not the Bible is true) and since God would not create sin because he is God, we can deduce that God did not create said person homosexual.

 

Do you understand my take? Not agree, but understand?

 

I understand your take. I do not agree, at least in part. When sin entered the world, it tainted God's creation. A person being born homosexual could be one of the results of that.

 

I won't argue that God created sin, but I'll ask - did God create you? me? Where we born with a sinful nature?

I think in both instances, you have an individual struggling with a specific sin. The internal struggle will always be there (sin nature), regardless of the outward action. I don't see the difference that you do.

 

"The good that I want to do, I don't do. The evil that I don't want to do, this is what I find myself doing." That's probably not a precise quotation of Romans 7, but it's pretty close. The general idea is that there will always be a pull toward sin for humans because we're all infected with an inclination toward doing what is wrong.

 

That's fine. We don't have to agree.

As to your question, I suppose it boils down to one question - what makes a person homosexual? An attraction to the opposite sex? Or, acting upon an attraction to the opposite sex?

In my opinion, it is the act that is sinful. Having a weakness to a certain temptation is not a sin. Suppose for instance I have a weakness for pornography and I know that I am tempted by that particular thing. If I repent of that and try to avoid it, I am not living in sin, even though I may live the rest of my life with that weakness and every time I log on to my computer I may be tempted to view it. We all are tempted by something.

 

I know someone will throw out the well known verse about lust, and I would agree, it is a sin. Lusting is a verb, an action. If you lust after someone who is not your spouse then you are sinning according to the Bible teaching of Jesus. I know that I am attracted to women, and I can certainly appreciate a woman who is beautiful. For that reason my wife always gets her Victoria Secret catalog second handed because I am the one who checks the mail. However I do not lust after every woman I meet, I do not want to have sex with every woman I meet. If I took that VS magazine off somewhere and fantasized about those women or looked upon them with desire, then IMO that would be a sin that I would need to repent of. But simply being heterosexual, and attracted to women, doesn't make me sinful.

 

I don't think it is a stretch to apply that thinking to other temptations, that if acted upon would be sinful, homosexuality included.

 

Also I have to say, when I was a kid, Moses really threw me off with that "do not covet your neighbors a$$" thing. My Sunday school buddies and I had a real laugher out of that one. LOL

In my opinion, it is the act that is sinful. Having a weakness to a certain temptation is not a sin. Suppose for instance I have a weakness for pornography and I know that I am tempted by that particular thing. If I repent of that and try to avoid it, I am not living in sin, even though I may live the rest of my life with that weakness and every time I log on to my computer I may be tempted to view it. We all are tempted by something.

 

I know someone will throw out the well known verse about lust, and I would agree, it is a sin. Lusting is a verb, an action. If you lust after someone who is not your spouse then you are sinning according to the Bible teaching of Jesus. I know that I am attracted to women, and I can certainly appreciate a woman who is beautiful. For that reason my wife always gets her Victoria Secret catalog second handed because I am the one who checks the mail. However I do not lust after every woman I meet, I do not want to have sex with every woman I meet. If I took that VS magazine off somewhere and fantasized about those women or looked upon them with desire, then IMO that would be a sin that I would need to repent of. But simply being heterosexual, and attracted to women, doesn't make me sinful.

 

I don't think it is a stretch to apply that thinking to other temptations, that if acted upon would be sinful, homosexuality included.

 

Also I have to say, when I was a kid, Moses really threw me off with that "do not covet your neighbors a$$" thing. My Sunday school buddies and I had a real laugher out of that one. LOL

 

Agreed & well put! :thumb:

I understand your take. I do not agree, at least in part. When sin entered the world, it tainted God's creation. A person being born homosexual could be one of the results of that.

 

I won't argue that God created sin, but I'll ask - did God create you? me? Where we born with a sinful nature?

 

Exactly. :thumb:

Here is my biggest frustration with this issue (and many others).

 

Are we who call ourselves Christians reaching out and showing LOVE? Was there any LOVE displayed in the day Huckabee set aside to support CFA? Do we get too much enjoyment out of pointing fingers and looking down our noses while we clutch our Bibles and say "I am right and you are wrong"? That concerns me.

 

If we are who we say we are, then we should be most concerned with getting ourselves into Heaven, and secondly trying to take as many people with us as we can. If we adhere to Jesus' teachings, then the second greatest commandment is "Love your neighbor as yourself". I am not sure how to love anyone as much as I love myself. But if that is my mindset, it should grieve me to tears to know that any of my fellow man be treated the way some so-called Christians treat homosexuals.

 

I can say without any reservations that I am most thankful for the people in my life who prayed for me, tried to teach me the truth, taught me that I was living in sin and that I needed the blood of Christ to cleanse me of those sins. Although I resisted it at the time, I am forever thankful that they loved me enough to gently show me the error of my ways. I wasn't beaten over the head with the Bible, nobody pointed fingers at me and made me feel ashamed of myself. But they did show me love and genlty let me know that God also loved me and wanted me to be a part of His Kingdom. And they taught me that my sin was keeping me from being able to get there and they taught me what I needed to do to get forgiveness and have my sins washed away.

 

So I fully believe that there is nothing wrong with teaching the Gospel of Jesus, and helping those we teach to examine themselves and try to eliminate sin from their lives. Where we take a wrong turn all too often is in our approach. If we love our neighbor as we love ourselves, then I question whether we are fostering an environment towards the gay community in particular that would allow us to show them that love and afford us the opportunity to gently lead them to God. Perhaps instead of just telling them they are destined to Hell while we munch on our CFA sandwich, we could have spent some time with a gay friend and let them know that we feel their pain and that God loves them too just as much as he loves any of us. It must have been tough emotionally to deal with such a public condemnation.

 

I am not suggesting that we bend the scripture, we have to stand on truth. I am suggesting that if we take our mission seriously and set out to try and lead others to salvation, we need to do it with love and gentleness. This is true for everyone around us. This is a nasty sinful world and Satan is having a field day. Are we even trying to be the light to those around us? Or have we given up?

 

I'm sorry if I am rambling. I am praying for everyone and I try to please God. I fail daily and I ask you to pray for me too.

Excellent post again! :thumb:

 

It's very difficult, at least from my vantage point, to balance truth & love. Yet that is what we have been called to do. Truth without love leads to legalism & condescending attitudes, neither of which helps advance the gospel. Love without truth leads to an anything goes gospel, which isn't the gospel.

 

The story in John 8 of Jesus & the woman caught in adultery is the first place I can think of where we see that perfect balance between the two. People tend to point out Jesus' statement about "you who are without sin, cast the first stone." But they neglect to point out the other part where Jesus said, "Go now & leave your life of sin."