Probably. But there's no way Thomas was going to vote any other way than against the law, so it's not as if his wife's money was going to change the outcome.

 

Wrong thread.

 

:lol: :lol:

 

Got me messed up for a second. :lol:

On second thought, a Joe Biden presidency has the potential for some high quality entertainment.

 

:lol:

 

I can afford beer so I'm down.

They may be undercover or actually working with the Mexican government. Maybe there really is something that needs to be hidden to protect national security. That is possible.

 

Well if that is the case, then they should have had a sit down secret meeting and told the committee so it would be dropped. Thank God we have separation of powers and groups that keep others from just breaking the laws like our current adm is doing.

 

They, the Obama gang are trying to cover up their lies and failure at this little gun running they did that got one border agent killed and untelling how many Mexicans killed. Maybe our dictator is finding out he can't just run all over our rules and laws.

As stated previously I wasn't well-versed on the F&F issue. Since then here's what I understand. Correct any point you think is incorrect. It will serve as a good summary for many.

 

1. F&F is an extension of Operation Wide Receiver which was started in 2007.

2. F&F goal was to allow "gun walking" to take place in order to catch the bigger fish ie the Cartels.

3. Gun walking has been frowned upon but has taken place previously during the Bush administration as an experiment.

4. F&F lost track of upto 2000 guns as they "walked" into Mexico.

5. Border agent was killed by one of those guns.

6. The documents that the WH is not releasing are internal documents created AFTER F&F was ended ie looking to see who knew what and when.

7. WH has released documents that were created PRIOR to the end of F&F.

8. One major difference between F&F and Wide Receiver was that WR was in conjunction with Mexican authorities.

9. Exec Privilege is not new as it has been used in previous administrations.

10. Debate centers around what docs are covered under Exec Privilege.

 

Does that about cover it?

Politics - Conor Friedersdorf - The Policy That Killed 100 Times as Many Mexicans as Fast and Furious - The Atlantic

As stated previously I wasn't well-versed on the F&F issue. Since then here's what I understand. Correct any point you think is incorrect. It will serve as a good summary for many.

 

1. F&F is an extension of Operation Wide Receiver which was started in 2007.

2. F&F goal was to allow "gun walking" to take place in order to catch the bigger fish ie the Cartels.

3. Gun walking has been frowned upon but has taken place previously during the Bush administration as an experiment.

4. F&F lost track of upto 2000 guns as they "walked" into Mexico.

5. Border agent was killed by one of those guns.

6. The documents that the WH is not releasing are internal documents created AFTER F&F was ended ie looking to see who knew what and when.

7. WH has released documents that were created PRIOR to the end of F&F.

8. One major difference between F&F and Wide Receiver was that WR was in conjunction with Mexican authorities.

9. Exec Privilege is not new as it has been used in previous administrations.

10. Debate centers around what docs are covered under Exec Privilege.

 

Does that about cover it?

I only have time right now to address #1.

Operation Wide Receiver began in early 2006 and ran into late 2007. It was a horribly designed gun interdiction program using RFID tags to trace guns to the border. The problem was criminals figured out how to outsmart the technology thus rendering the tags useless or of limited usefulness plus the Mexican agents the program was coordinated with fell asleep on the job, so to speak.

Operation Fast and Furious was implemented without Mexican coordination, without the knowledge of the ATF attache in Mexico, and employed no surveillance.

Politics - Conor Friedersdorf - The Policy That Killed 100 Times as Many Mexicans as Fast and Furious - The Atlantic

 

The tag line from the article:" For political reasons, GOP partisans suddenly care a lot about dead foreigners. They should turn their attention to the war on drugs."

 

From the article itself: "Before Fast and Furious, I never recall the conservative movement giving much thought to dead Mexicans. But now that the body count can be attributed to a bureaucracy run by Democrats?"

 

 

 

 

The author of the article is missing the point terribly in his very partisan way. This GOP member cares a lot more about the dead Border Patrol officer and American citizen than I do about the dead foreigners. This GOP member cares a lot more about the strength of the drug cartels operating in our southern border states more than I do about dead foreigners.

The tag line from the article:" For political reasons, GOP partisans suddenly care a lot about dead foreigners. They should turn their attention to the war on drugs."

 

From the article itself: "Before Fast and Furious, I never recall the conservative movement giving much thought to dead Mexicans. But now that the body count can be attributed to a bureaucracy run by Democrats?"

 

 

 

 

The author of the article is missing the point terribly in his very partisan way. This GOP member cares a lot more about the dead Border Patrol officer and American citizen than I do about the dead foreigners. This GOP member cares a lot more about the strength of the drug cartels operating in our southern border states more than I do about dead foreigners.

 

I thought it was at least somewhat thought provoking and topical here. But, I think the broader point is still worth considering, which is that the cartel violence is almost wholly a symptom of drug prohibition. Many people are incensed over the death(s) stemming from this operation, but you are hard pressed to find any mention of the tens of thousands of American weapons trafficked across the border or the violence they've wrought once there. It would stand to reason that even if the plight of foreign citizens is ignorable, the cartel violence spilling into the US would be just as infuriating whether the guns were legally purchased in the US, purchased abroad on the black market, or came from a mishandled sting operation. There has been more than one American death as a result of cartel violence, but those have never sparked conversations on the so called War on Drugs.

As stated previously I wasn't well-versed on the F&F issue. Since then here's what I understand. Correct any point you think is incorrect. It will serve as a good summary for many.

 

1. F&F is an extension of Operation Wide Receiver which was started in 2007.

2. F&F goal was to allow "gun walking" to take place in order to catch the bigger fish ie the Cartels.

3. Gun walking has been frowned upon but has taken place previously during the Bush administration as an experiment.

4. F&F lost track of upto 2000 guns as they "walked" into Mexico.

5. Border agent was killed by one of those guns.

6. The documents that the WH is not releasing are internal documents created AFTER F&F was ended ie looking to see who knew what and when.

7. WH has released documents that were created PRIOR to the end of F&F.

8. One major difference between F&F and Wide Receiver was that WR was in conjunction with Mexican authorities.

9. Exec Privilege is not new as it has been used in previous administrations.

10. Debate centers around what docs are covered under Exec Privilege.

 

Does that about cover it?

 

1. F&F is an extension of Operation Wide Receiver which was started in 2007.

 

- No. It is not. WR was completely separate. More importantly, WR did not protect known criminals and enable them to knowingly take arms into Mexico. It was supposed to interdict criminals after the criminals were tracked for a period. F&F basically encouraged and protected known gun walkers to transport guns into Mexico. WR was done in conjunction with Mexican authorities. FF was not.

 

2. F&F goal was to allow "gun walking" to take place in order to catch the bigger fish ie the Cartels.

 

- If they say that. Not sure why allowing guns to walk was needed. It is not like the DEA and Mexican authorities do not know who is who in the cartel world. Sounds 'fishy'...

 

3. Gun walking has been frowned upon but has taken place previously during the Bush administration as an experiment.

 

- As noted above WR was not designed to 'walk guns' at all. It was designed to trace and track and interdict (capture) criminals. But it lost track of of some of the targets. Walkers were arrested or supposed to be arrested in WR. That is not the case in FF.

 

4. F&F lost track of up to 2000 guns as they "walked" into Mexico.

 

- I think it is 'over' 2000 but close enough.

 

5. Border agent was killed by one of those guns.

 

- 2 guns from FF operations were found after a shoot out with incoming aliens and Border Patrol. Brian Terry was shot and died. The actual gun used to kill agent Terry was not identified (apparently through and through round(s)). Brian Terry was armed with a bean bag gun. It is estimated that over 100 Mexican citizens have been killed with FF operation guns.

 

6. The documents that the WH is not releasing are internal documents created AFTER F&F was ended ie looking to see who knew what and when.

 

- I believe they are only after DOJ documents still.

 

7. WH has released documents that were created PRIOR to the end of F&F.

 

- WH has not released anything. DOJ has provided 7,000 of over 80,000 documents. The timing of the documents may indicate a cover-up since DOJ has been caught lying or mis-stating facts in its early testimony.

 

8. One major difference between F&F and Wide Receiver was that WR was in conjunction with Mexican authorities.

 

- As noted above - the operations were unrelated. WR was deemed a failure due to losing track of actual individuals. Never were the goals of WR similar to FF. But the Mexican authorities were not in the loop on FF.

 

9. Exec Privilege is not new as it has been used in previous administrations.

 

- True. Most famously with the Nixon administration. Two Attorney Generals from that administration were convicted of crimes and sent to jail. This is the first invocation of Exec Privelige by this adminstration.

 

10. Debate centers around what docs are covered under Exec Privilege.

 

- Well, Holder is up for a contempt of Congress vote tomorrow. Exec Privlige has now been invoked as a response to the contempt vote. Issa sent letter today indicating they are not after 'all' documents but that the contempt charges are due to flat 'no' to current request with no attempt to support current requests or work with Congress.

Politics - Conor Friedersdorf - The Policy That Killed 100 Times as Many Mexicans as Fast and Furious - The Atlantic

 

The point that the American war on drugs in general is killing Mexican citizens could be viewed as somewhat correct.

 

But when they quote Bill Maher it is hard to keep reading. Maybe they should add a quote from Jon Stewart. I guess we live in a pop culture world.

The point that the American war on drugs in general is killing Mexican citizens could be viewed as somewhat correct.

 

But when they quote Bill Maher it is hard to keep reading. Maybe they should add a quote from Jon Stewart. I guess we live in a pop culture world.

 

He was quoting Bill Maher as an example of the pervasiveness of the talking point, not as an authority.

He was quoting Bill Maher as an example of the pervasiveness of the talking point, not as an authority.

 

I just wish anyone would avoid referencing him. I tried to watch his show recently while on the road and I could not get past 10 minutes of it. He is like cartoonist Joel Pett in the LHL. I think he just likes the shock effect. But that is another thread....

I just wish anyone would avoid referencing him. I tried to watch his show recently while on the road and I could not get past 10 minutes of it. He is like cartoonist Joel Pett in the LHL. I think he just likes the shock effect. But that is another thread....

 

I don't care for him either.

1. F&F is an extension of Operation Wide Receiver which was started in 2007.

 

- No. It is not. WR was completely separate. More importantly, WR did not protect known criminals and enable them to knowingly take arms into Mexico. It was supposed to interdict criminals after the criminals were tracked for a period. F&F basically encouraged and protected known gun walkers to transport guns into Mexico. WR was done in conjunction with Mexican authorities. FF was not.

 

2. F&F goal was to allow "gun walking" to take place in order to catch the bigger fish ie the Cartels.

 

- If they say that. Not sure why allowing guns to walk was needed. It is not like the DEA and Mexican authorities do not know who is who in the cartel world. Sounds 'fishy'...

 

3. Gun walking has been frowned upon but has taken place previously during the Bush administration as an experiment.

 

- As noted above WR was not designed to 'walk guns' at all. It was designed to trace and track and interdict (capture) criminals. But it lost track of of some of the targets. Walkers were arrested or supposed to be arrested in WR. That is not the case in FF.

 

.

 

 

According to this Fox News report there was indeed known "gun walking."

 

 

July 13, 2006: According to a memo, ATF agents -- looking to further their investigation -- wanted to know if the U.S. attorney's office would allow "an indeterminate number of illegal weapons ... to be released into the community, and possibly into Mexico, without any further ability by the U.S. Government to control their movement or future use." ATF's legal counsel was "opposed" to the idea, "citing moral objections," according to the memo. It's unclear how the U.S. attorney responded.

 

 

June 2007: An ATF official said in an email he is "no longer comfortable allowing additional firearms to 'walk,' without a more defined purpose." (In a December 2008 email, a federal prosecutor in Arizona said the U.S. government "allow[ed] 100s of guns to go into Mexico to drug people knowing that is where they are going.")

 

 

Nov. 15, 2007: While working to draft a memo for Attorney General Michael Mukasey's upcoming meeting with his Mexican counterpart, an ATF official noted there "have (been) cases in the past where we have walked guns."

 

Read more: Fast and Furious documents: What do they show? | Fox News

 

Read more: Fast and Furious documents: What do they show? | Fox News

According to this Fox News report there was indeed known "gun walking."

 

 

July 13, 2006: According to a memo, ATF agents -- looking to further their investigation -- wanted to know if the U.S. attorney's office would allow "an indeterminate number of illegal weapons ... to be released into the community, and possibly into Mexico, without any further ability by the U.S. Government to control their movement or future use." ATF's legal counsel was "opposed" to the idea, "citing moral objections," according to the memo. It's unclear how the U.S. attorney responded.

 

 

June 2007: An ATF official said in an email he is "no longer comfortable allowing additional firearms to 'walk,' without a more defined purpose." (In a December 2008 email, a federal prosecutor in Arizona said the U.S. government "allow[ed] 100s of guns to go into Mexico to drug people knowing that is where they are going.")

 

 

Nov. 15, 2007: While working to draft a memo for Attorney General Michael Mukasey's upcoming meeting with his Mexican counterpart, an ATF official noted there "have (been) cases in the past where we have walked guns."

 

Read more: Fast and Furious documents: What do they show? | Fox News

 

Read more: Fast and Furious documents: What do they show? | Fox News

 

They were still completely different operations. The human suspects were supposed to be tracked on both sides of the border and eventually arrested. There was no tracking in FF after the walker crossed the border. Also, in FF the DOJ facilitated the purchases and basically protected the walkers until they got to the border. WR was flawed and it looks like ATF attorneys and Justice attorneys raised the red flags until it was halted.

 

With this as supposed background it hand to understand why FF was undertaken. Fool me once (WR) shame on you....fool me twice (FF) shame on me....or in this case shame on DOJ.