June 27, 201214 yr Correct.... But I do not know. When there are multiple versions of the truth then you do not know which (if any!) to believe. Now we know why Issa is still digging.... Agreed overall. However, the article makes it seemingly clear that hands were tied. Agree?
June 27, 201214 yr I want to know how their hands were tied? It surely cannot be LEGAL for ILLEGALS or non-residents to buy firearms, can it?
June 27, 201214 yr I want to know how their hands were tied? It surely cannot be LEGAL for ILLEGALS or non-residents to buy firearms, can it? Hands were tied because of the existing gun laws. They sold to "legals." If the gun shop runs the criminal background check and they pass they get guns. The ATF found that a guy on food stamps dropped something like $300k in cash over a short period of time to buy guns. ATF wanted to bust him but the local US Attorneys said not enough evidence. AZ is culpable in this IMO.
June 27, 201214 yr The article cited another case where the buyer said all of the guns were for him and then immediately went outside and gave them to another person. ATF was not allowed to do anything.
June 27, 201214 yr Agreed overall. However, the article makes it seemingly clear that hands were tied. Agree? I can not see where anyone's hands were tied. AFT arranged for purchases, made transfers. Check this out. New Fast & Furious document: ATF bought guns with taxpayer money and sold them to illegal buyers directly « Hot Air According to sources directly involved in the case, Dodson felt strongly that the weapons should not be abandoned and the stash house should remain under 24-hour surveillance. However, Voth disagreed and ordered the surveillance team to return to the office. Dodson refused, and for six days in the desert heat kept the house under watch, defying direct orders from Voth. A week later, a second vehicle showed up to transfer the weapons. Dodson called for an interdiction team to move in, make the arrest and seize the weapons. Voth refused and the guns disappeared with no surveillance. Things were not simply botched or hands were tied...something else was going on when you have subordinates directly defying superiors.
June 27, 201214 yr I'd encourage all, regardless of what you think is the truth, to read the Fortune article and give your thoughts. Very interesting and disturbing. Well, the spokeswoman for Issa has weighed in.... https://twitter.com/beccaglover/status/218013187180728320 that story is a fantasy
June 27, 201214 yr Operation Wide Receiver vs. Operation Fast and Furious « Coffee N Chat ATF agents have testified they were expressly ordered to stand down when they tried to follow the cartel straw purchasers.
June 27, 201214 yr I can not see where anyone's hands were tied. AFT arranged for purchases, made transfers. Check this out. New Fast & Furious document: ATF bought guns with taxpayer money and sold them to illegal buyers directly « Hot Air Things were not simply botched or hands were tied...something else was going on when you have subordinates directly defying superiors. From the Fortune article: On June 1, Dodson used $2,500 in ATF funds to purchase six AK Draco pistols from local gun dealers, and gave these to Fernandez, who reimbursed him and gave him $700 for his efforts. Two days later, according to case records, Dodson—who would later testify that in his previous experience, "if even one [gun] got away from us, nobody went home until we found it"—left on a scheduled vacation without interdicting the guns. That day, Voth wrote to remind him that money collected as evidence needed to be vouchered within five days. Dodson e-mailed back, his sarcasm fully restored: "Do the orders define a 'day'? Is it; a calendar day? A business day or work day….? An Earth day (because a day on Venus takes 243 Earth days which would mean that I have plenty of time)?" The guns were never recovered, the case was later closed, and Fernandez was never charged. By any definition, it was gun walking of the most egregious sort: a government agent using taxpayer money to deliver guns to bad guys and then failing to intercept them. If the article is even 50% right about Dodson he a)had a big beef with Voth because Voth was a rule-follower and b) was not a good dude. If he is the source for anything it has to be examined closely. In addition, he appears to be the sole source for Rep Issa et al in regards to "walking."
June 27, 201214 yr Operation Wide Receiver vs. Operation Fast and Furious « Coffee N Chat I don't think that's debatable. They were told to stand down. They were told by the US Attorneys and local prosecutors to stand down.
June 27, 201214 yr I don't think that's debatable. They were told to stand down. They were told by the US Attorneys and local prosecutors to stand down. Yes...it would appear the botching came from the top (or at least the middle)....not the bottom...
June 27, 201214 yr Issa letter to the White House. Rep. Issa Letter to Obama Re: Executive Privilege Key points in letter: 1. Executive privilege is only available to those who have close proximity to the President. It does not trickle down. 2. Early on there were strong and repeated denials of knowledge or involvement or authorization. 3. Use of EP brings those early denials into question.
June 27, 201214 yr Issa letter to the White House. Rep. Issa Letter to Obama Re: Executive Privilege Key points in letter: 1. Executive privilege is only available to those who have close proximity to the President. It does not trickle down. 2. Early on there were strong and repeated denials of knowledge or involvement or authorization. 3. Use of EP brings those early denials into question. #1 is one of those that depends on who you listen to and how you read cases. Some experts agree with the president’s view that all executive branch documents are protected from disclosure. Ohio State University law professor Peter Shane, a specialist in presidential power, says executive privilege historically covers documents generated anywhere in the executive branch. Issa challenges Obama executive privilege claim - Boston.com
June 28, 201214 yr - True. Most famously with the Nixon administration. Two Attorney Generals from that administration were convicted of crimes and sent to jail. This is the first invocation of Exec Privelige by this adminstration. . Apparently a memo has gone around saying to describe F&F exec privilege as being Watergate-ish. One even said F&F makes Watergate look like "child's play." The Gov of Texas said "It's Nixon-ian what the White House is doing." When asked "what are you accusing the President of?" he replied (perfectly) "I don't know." That pretty much exemplifies where we are today in politics.
June 28, 201214 yr #1 is one of those that depends on who you listen to and how you read cases. Some experts agree with the president’s view that all executive branch documents are protected from disclosure. Ohio State University law professor Peter Shane, a specialist in presidential power, says executive privilege historically covers documents generated anywhere in the executive branch. Issa challenges Obama executive privilege claim - Boston.com Oh, I did not mean to agree or disagree with Mr. Issa. He seems to be playing chess while the administration seems to be playing checkers though. Its :popcorn: time on this subject now.
June 28, 201214 yr Oh, I did not mean to agree or disagree with Mr. Issa. He seems to be playing chess while the administration seems to be playing checkers though. Its :popcorn: time on this subject now. I didn't take it any other way than you presenting his view.
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