Diogenes

This topic, in my opinion, has been under the radar far longer than it deserves. It is the proverbial bull in the china shop in areas far greater than high school athletics. However, because this is a high school athletic football thread, I will limit my comments to the effects of busing on football only. At the outset, one must determine whether the Supreme Court will decide in a manner that abolishes busing in Jefferson County. Many knowledgeable Court followers predict that the two Justice shift in the Supreme Court over the last couple of years will alter the delicate balance that kept busing in effect for a number of years. The Rehnquist/Roberts trade on the Court should not affect the balance, because Rehnquist was a consistent opponent of racially balancing schools/ busing as far back as the early 1950s where some of his writings pre-Brown v. Board of Education almost derailed his appointment to the United States Supreme Court. However, the O'Connor/Alito change in the Court may tip the 5- 4 pro-busing balance. Sandra Day O'Connor had voted to uphold busing as a remedy for prior racial inequities; Samuel Alito has signaled that he would not vote to uphold busing. Assuming that busing is struck down, what then? Indeed, there are at least two templates of which I am aware for gaging the potential affect of busing on local schools. One is the Kansas City template; the other is the Charlotte template. The Charlotte template is the one referred to in the above post, recently described in the Courier-Journal. The Kansas City template occurred about a decade earlier and I have written to this effect in an earlier post on another thread. Essentially, the post-busing situation in both cities, hardly geographically proximate and occurring a decade apart, is strikingly similar. There is a frantic attempt by many in the community to maintain some semblance of racial balance in the schools. In Kansas City it was estimated that up to $1 billion was spent in an attempt to make inner-city schools attractive to suburban students. "But despite a $900,000 television advertising budget and a $6.4 million special budget for door-to-door transportation of suburban students, the district did not attract the ...white suburban students ... Even that modest number drastically declined after the Supreme Court's 1995 ruling that the judge had no authority to spend taxpayer dollars to transport suburban students into the district. By the 1996-97 school year, only 387 suburban students were still attending school in the KCMSD. Given that the district's annual desegregation budget was approximately $200 million, the cost of attracting those suburban students was half a million dollars per year per child." See: http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-298.html There is no reason to believe that the Louisville/Jefferson County would be any different than either of our sister cities. That is, schools would shortly take on the demographic characteristics of their immediate neighborhoods. Ethnic and racial groups, when given free choice, still tend to cluster together in America. After all, as Dr. King said "the most segregated area of American life is Sunday morning church". If Jefferson County reverts to a pre-busing configuration, one would expect that the football powers that existed in the early 70s may again become powerful. One caveat: how about the big Catholics? Even adjusting for inflation, tuition at private schools has risen to dizzying heights. Parents will weigh whether to send their sons and daughters to nearby neighborhood schools or to pay over $8,000 in tuition to send their sons and daughters to Catholic high schools. It is certainly plausible to believe that Catholic schools will take major enrollment hits as a result of changes brought about by the abolition of busing. As has been raised on this board a number of times previously, one of the advantages St. Xavier and Trinity enjoy over schools such as Male and Manual in football is an approximately 2-1 advantage in numbers of boys. How far does this numerical advantage have to dwindle before parity arrives in football? And, will there be differences in the manner in which individual Catholic school's enrollment are affected? I believe that this issue is perhaps going to become the major issue in high school athletics in Jefferson County over the next two or three years. Hopefully, other BGPers can weigh in with additional analysis.

CharlieW, rhetorical conversations can be pretty interesting if the topic is pleasant!

Bombshell news for the o-line, one of the places help was needed, IMHO. Welcome back.

I hate to interrupt this intrastate spat, but would anyone who attended the game care to post an assessment of the individual players?

I believe the complaint (or observation) was not as much "T's weak schedule being the reason they dominate...." but rather that T's playoff schedule... BTW, Male fans also made this observation. True or not, T won state, and that is what counts. Staying on topic, last season Trinity was much more impressive on the ground than many expected. Phillips returns, but what of the O-line? RP predicted "as good as last seasons". My question: Returning starters or new blood?

I can't speak for the Trinity people, but Bowling Green has played X the last couple of years, so no surprise there. PRP has a young coach trying to improve by playing a rugged schedule. Butler? A suicide march-Trinity, X, Manual, Male, PRP. Friedrich Nietzsche said that what doesn't kill us makes us stronger. Butler will test this theorum.

Friday, Aug. 31 – Bowling Green at Trinity, 8 p.m. Friday, Sept. 7 – Butler at Trinity, 7:30 p.m. Friday, Sept. 14 – Trinity at Cincinnati St. Xavier, 7:30 p.m. Friday, Sept. 21 – Eastern at Trinity, 7:30 p.m. Friday, Sept. 28 – Louisville St. Xavier vs. Trinity at Papa John’s Cardinal Stadium, 8 p.m. Friday, Oct. 5 – Trinity at Ballard, 7:30 p.m. Friday, Oct. 12 – Trinity at Pleasure Ridge Park, 7:30 p.m. Friday, Oct. 19 – Seneca at Trinity, 7:30 p.m. Friday, Oct. 26 – Lexington Paul Dunbar at Trinity, 7:30 p.m. Friday, Nov. 2 – Trinity at Lexington Lafayette, 7:30 p.m. Very, very impressive schedule. I notice an opening on August 24, any chance of scheduling the Florida Gators? It is difficult to find an area to improve. Concerns noted earlier in the thread are specialty teams and qb. If the kicking game just maintains it will be among the best in the state. Petrino graduating will be a blow, but Stein should step up, and with the early season schedule he should grow into the position nicely. Again, top flight schedule.

I recognize that the statement was posted in jest, but want to add that when Trinity's new stadium was opened, and thus far in the construction of St. X's facility, most posters from both schools have been gracious about the other school's stadium. This caliber of posts has not always been the norm between fans of the schools, and it is a welcome trend, IMHO.

Oxnard's post, as usual, is straifgtforward and his analysis is appropriate in this case. Trinity has a much larger number of starters returning, and may begin the season as a favorite, since they are the defending champions. Both squads have top of the line coaches. But, St. X should have plenty of talent this year. Last years' (2006 season) seniors were totally blown away as freshmen by Trinity and Male, and (coincidently ?) Trinity and Male were the top teams four years later. X's and O's often are trumped by Jimmys and Joes. Ox, RP may have hit it overall: "In 6A, I hear Trinity, St. X, and Male will be ok." As the saying goes...The only things certain are death and taxes. Perhaps "In 6A, I hear Trinity, St. X, and Male will be ok" can be added.

Indeed, I have said before that a book could be written, or a movie made, of the 1999 St. X march to the state 4A title. The Tigers trailed a very good Male team on a rain soaked field at Manual Stadium going into the 4th quarter, then rallied to win in the quarterfinals. The semifinal game, as you eloquently described, had St. X trailing with two minutes to go in the game. The state championship was also dramatic, with X trailing on the final play of overtime. What a run!

I do not believe this will happen. Coach Glaser has stressed over the years trying to play as many kids as possible. You are not being negative to note what many see as a positive about Glaser. He has enjoyed great success over the years with this system, including a state title and state runner up in the previous three years. Whether he would be more successful playing fewer players is difficult to discern, but it is just not his way. Some coaches (Glaser, Lampley) have had success by playing a large number of kids. Others (Beatty) tend to rely more on the best athlete philosophy. Success has seemed to follow both systems.

And, whatever happened to that kid?

Special teams improvement and quarterback productivity are key to a good season for the 2007 Tigers. The 2006 team played to its ability, but the overall talent was not there. The seniors were 6-4 as freshmen and 9-3 last year. As freshmen, two of their losses were lopsided-Male and Trinity. Those teams were their only losses in 2006, and the talent disparity was too great to overcome. As to chemistry, this is an area that is difficult to quantify. Who knows the "chemistry" of any 2007 team yet.

Offcentre67 I like your avatar, but permit one correction: Re: Kentucky's only NCAA National Champions in Football! The Hilltoppers of Western Kentucky University won the 2002 National Collegiate Athletic Association Division I-AA Football Championship 34 to 14! Perhaps Centre and WKU are Kentucky's only 2 NCAA National Champions in Football!

theguru "What does St. Xavier need to do to improve in 2007?" Improved passing and pass defense, IMHO, could be the upgrades. A higher pass completion percentage would complement and take pressure off the running game. theguru "What do they need to keep doing to be successful?" Large offensive lines and powerful running attacks have been a hallmark of Glaser football teams.

Guru:"What does St. Xavier need to do to improve in 2007? What do they need to keep doing to be successful? Remember, please be constructive."

Xtiger69 was accurate. The crowd was not a sellout, but it was large by high school standards. The facility is absolutely top notch.

You are correct, I misunderstood your point. However, now that I understand your point I still disagree with your point. It really is not "The weathly is the people SENDING their kids to the private schools." We can use my earlier post as a useful analogy for this point. DeSales is located in a blue-collar neighborhood. Virtually all of their students come from blue-collar families. Compare the demographics of their school with, for example, Atherton, Wagner, Oldham County, Fort Thomas, Eastern or Ballard. You would find that each of those schools has proportionally a much greater percentage of "wealthy" families than does DeSales. On the other hand, you could compare the proportion of "wealthy" families from St. X or Trinity to Shawnee or Western and find that the private schools in that analysis had a higher percentage of "wealthy" families. BTW, I did not mean to "attack" you in my earlier post and apologize if it seemed strident. Your posts are generally well thought out and your tone is calm and rational. These boards would be better off if all posters were as rational and calm as you.:thumb:

Except.....that the wealthy in this case are the public schools. Look at the facts: Look at the vast majority of private schools. What finances do privates have that outweigh public finances? Would your school trade its situation with Louisville DeSales, a private school? Compare DeSales with the advantages of your public school. Your public school has the initial multimillion dollar head start when it was built for you by tax revenues paid in part by the parents of DeSales students. Athletic facilities? DeSales has no football stadium. Your local public high school probably has a stadium. Throw a couple more million on the ledger in your favor. Those same DeSales kids’ parents paid in part for your stadium. Still believe DeSales is the wealthy school vis-a-vis your public school? Don’t forget teachers’ salaries. Every year the tab comes due for this bill. DeSales' supporters pay this entirely out of their pockets. The government pays all of this bill for your institution. Did we discuss furnishing that empty multimillion dollar school facility you were given? Desks, labs, lockers…. You may have taken these for granted, something the blue collar parents of DeSales students, located in a blue collar neighborhood, are acutely aware of. We still haven’t discussed support staff. Somebody has to keep the physical plant operational and clean. Set aside another huge block of money-every day. Is your desire to trade with DeSales for their hypothetical "wealth" waning? It just gets worse. We haven’t discussed medical benefits, pensions and vacation pay for teachers and support staff. And don’t forget building upkeep, expansion, legal expenses and myriad other expenses that go into providing a first class education to young people. Now substitute Covington Catholic, St. Henry, Mercy, Pres, Christian Academy,Lexington Christian or most other privates. If you are honest, you will admit that the financial playing field is not level, but it tilts in a direction that many do not want to admit, and this exists whether rural or urban. My intent with this post is not to criticize, but to clear up a misstatement.

No football team at Trinity has been made up entirely of Catholics. Does the team reflect the school? It is my understanding that Trinity is 50%-60% Catholic as a school, so it is not surprising that the team also has non-Catholics.

What is the big deal as to an alleged exodus of 8th grade students from public to privte or vice-versa? People vote with their feet in these cases. If a family feels that a public school is better for their student, so be it. If a family wants to pay several thousand dollars per year to have their student attend a private, so be it. If a school does not want to lose students to a competing school, improve! Provide an atmosphere of top academics and athletics in a safe environment and students will flow into your school.

Regarding any advantage is that the privates have, the question is-what is the advantage? Fletch suggests that the privates are paying the tuition for their athletes. Rock Pride pointed out, correctly, that this would be illegal if it occurred. I have never understood Fletch's argument. What if every private school athlete in every sport was permitted to attend school without having to pay any tuition? This would merely level the playing field. Private school athletes would then be paying the exact same tuition as public school athletes- $0. Claude Henry Smmoott and Jay Bilas suggest that the private’s advantage comes from the fact that they take students from various counties surrounding their school by "luring" students to their school. Mr. Smmoott asserts that “I will continue rooting for my favorite teams and hope something or someone comes along and makes everyone play by the same set of rules." Guru has addressed this argument a number of times. There is no KHSAA rule against drawling students from various areas. As Guru has noted, much more succinctly, if one voluntarily chooses to self impose restrictions on oneself over and above the rules, one should not complain when others do not adhere to those self-imposed rules. Finally, as to Jay Bilas assertion that we all know that the privates have the money, I share LSURock’s astonishment. The government pays for public schools. Every penny for private schools comes from the pocket of private school supporters. If public school supporters merely supported their schools with a fraction of what private school supporters support their schools with, the public’s financial advantage over the privates would be staggering. Again, one should not blame a competitor for working harder than he works. If private schools really have more money, why are private schools teachers paid less than public school teachers and why do they have fewer benefits? Indeed, often private schools have inferior facilities than public schools. As an example, look at Jefferson County area private schools. DeSales and St. Xavier have never had football stadiums. To my knowledge, every public school in Jefferson County that plays football has their own stadium. I try to be open-minded about these issues. However, it is frustrating when I see the above excuses propounded over and over again by apologists for public schools when an examination of these excuses proves them to be false. So far, the only argument that I have heard from the public school proponents that seems irrefutable is the numerical advantage that St. Xavier and Trinity have over other schools in boys athletics, and even that advantage has been little, if any help to them in certain sports, such as basketball.

You are correct regarding Male. I started to note this in my post, but since the thread was about Ryle thought it better not to. However, now that the issue is raised, I would posit that Male is the lone exception to the rule regarding numbers. To that extent, thank goodness for X and T that Male does not have 1500 boys or X and T would have a difficult chore. And imagine if Male had the same proportion more boys than X or T currently has over Male- say 2700 or 2800 boys-the task would be almost impossible for X and T, who already are rough parity with Male over the past years in terms of scores of games. As has been noted in many areas of life, size matters! BTW, I do not mean to diminish the importance of coaching, hard work, big hearts, etc. I merely point out, as have many, that the two big Catholic powers have no monopoly on smart coaches or hardworking kids. But Catholic, or private, football is extremely dominant only in 4A. Only there have the two dominant powers such a numbers advantage. Without a huge numbers advantage, for the most part, X and T would enjoy the success of Cov Cath, Holy Cross or DeSales.

Excellent thread with a lot of good ideas about building a program. Sportsfan41, however, has a valid point. X and T have about 1500 boys. Even if Ryle works as "smart" and as "hard" as these schools, they still have one boy for every two at X and T. Put another way, if 1 out of 10 boys are superior athletes, and 1 out of 100 are fantastic athletes, in any given season X and T have 150 superior athletes to Ryle's 75, and X and T have 15 fantastic athletes to Ryle's 7 or 8. The numbers gap is a lot to overcome, and history validates it. Over the years I have come to believe that this is the reason for the dearth of state champions from Northern Kentucky in 4A. After all, Northern Kentucky is dominant in 1A, 2A, and 3A.

Not sure. Most dissension I read on this board comes from 4A football dominance.