Ole Kentuckian

As I've made known in other posts relating to who works the scorer's table I agree with TOG's point 100%. Right now most schools do NOT have responsible & capable individuals working the clock and keeping the book for varsity games. Now we add a shot clock?!? I think not. And TOG makes another point when he brings up the non-varsity games. Good gracious, what a quagmire those games would be with a shot clock - plus at most of the lower than varsity-level games I've observed, the athletes can't handle the ball well enough to intentionally hold it. Most are continual up & down the floor marathons until each quarter runs out (or an official blows his whistle).

That might be what you are implying but it is 180 degrees from what I said or was trying to say. It is isn't the association that is lax, it is that our state is so basketball crazy (and I'm one of them or I wouldn't be on this board) that people sue to make it possible for players to play who the association has ruled can't. Then a judge overrules the association and it either becomes a very expensive legal merry-go-round or the association has to back off. Am I satisfied with the depth of enforcement that our state's association takes to prevent obviously recruited players from playing? No. But after having observed it for 5+ decades and watching the judicial system become more & more liberal in their rulings, I have come to the point that I do understand that the KHSAA has an impossible job attempting to stop this crap. We've got out of state players everywhere and it has been going on for a long time. As opinionated as I like being, I have no suggested solution for this because it is well above my pay grade. Judges are the ones who make impossible for our association to do their job and it is not an easy thing to change that factor. Ultimately the only tool usually left to schools who must compete against schools who are obviously going well over the line (recruiting & using student athletes not from their school base) is to boycott them - DO NOT PLAY THEM. That will force them to have to travel to play and their school budget will have to bear the weight of that travel. Further they'll have a difficult time getting other teams to come to their gym to play them because it might be a long ways to go to play a team who uses players brought in from outside their school base. Otherwise we might as well learn to live with it.

The WPIAL is so far off base in this deal that they need professional intervention of some type. From what we can see in this recording, the coach did nothing that coaches don't do every game in verbally complaining to an official. The official, as Clyde points out, puts himself square in the middle of the coaches & players and then when the coach attempts to walk around him, the official backs & wheels right into the coach. Are they going to suspend the official for being the one that initiated the contact? Every coach in that association should scratch that official in the future. Guys like him have no business wearing a striped shirt. The official's job is to implement the rules of the game while making as little impact on the game while doing so. A great official typically is noticed as little as possible. Guess this official wanted to make sure he was available to be noticed one last time instead of running off the court with his fellow officials.

Not the KHSAA's fault. The timing of the players' lawsuits and when the judge ruled on them is what dictated when the KHSAA was obligated to change their ruling on when the players would be eligible to play. I suspect the KHSAA may pursue this further in the courts . . . or not. The KHSAA is funded by the schools that are a part of it and those who support the KHSAA's programs (like BB State Tournament and FB Play-offs, etc.), but their pocketbooks aren't bottomless. At some point they have to say "uncle" and give in to those who fund these player lawsuits because there is a limit of what they can spend going to court.

Actually I said the following: And what I was attempting to get across (apparently in an inadequate fashion) is that I hope we haven't reached the point that we allow our high school athletic associations begin making rules based on what is most attractive to the "fans" (re: draws more fans and thus bring more money into the athletic fund). The result of allowing such outside pressures to dictate how we regulate our game are all negative. Think of where we're at now with "TV or media timeouts". I have no doubt that media timeouts during televised games have increased the popularity and demand for DVRs. I know I would go insane (no remarks from the peanut gallery, please) if I had to listen to everything that all of the TV announcers said during the game breaks. Most are no different from the talking heads we see every Sunday morning that yak about politics, but I digress. I personally much prefer a fast-paced game and I'm sure the vast majority of fans do, but what style of play each team/coach can or will play is dictated by the resources available (players & their level of skill). So to go to a shot clock removes one of the tools that the less advantaged schools can use to attempt to compete. Just my opinion.

When my team is the one behind I hate teams that hold the ball, yet when my team is ahead and starts holding the ball I'm fine with it. Frankly, I think it adds something to the high school game and usually you have to have a pretty decent team to hold the ball if your opponent is any good at all. if your players are capable of pressuring your opponents into a mistake or hurried shot then it probably is a very close game that could be won by anybody. And BTW, I wasn't aware they began playing athletics in school systems to entertain whatever fans might be watching them. I was under the impression that it was to foster good sportsmanship and provide a type of physical exercise (go back & look it up). I think the NCAA & NBA started the idea that is necessary that we "entertain the fans" (or TV Viewers) all due to $$$. I could give a flying hoot about whether the NCAA, the NBA or ever any state high school athletic association implemented a shot clock to help them make money. Funny thing is I STILL hear some coaches call out to their players "North Carolina" when they want them to pull the ball out into something resembling Dean Smith's "four corner's" stall offense he made infamous at North Carolina. For being such a great HOF coach, Coach Smith certainly got a ton of infamy from having developed & refined the four corners stall.

Hard fought game through 3+ quarters with WC leading going into the fourth quarter by eight if memory serves me correctly. But Wayne didn't score for the first four-plus minutes of the fourth quarter, yet SW didn't take advantage of it and then finally WC's Woods drained a three and away they went. Once Wayne got up by double figures SW began fouling every time, EVERY TIME, Wayne had the ball. WC shot a ton of free throws in the last three minutes of the game. I'd say they shot thirty-plus for the game. SW has definitely improved their game since they played WC in December. They're giving considerably more playing time to their younger players. So it is SW vs. McCreary in the first round of the District with WC playing the winner in the final. With only one game to play in District week I wouldn't be surprised to see Wayne add somebody interesting to their schedule.

I like that - Wayne County did that this year in the second game of the season. They wore Monticello High jerseys (blue & white), honored MHS's '60 State Runners-Up squad, all the other MHS athletes present, plus hung banners listing MHS's accomplishments and put a photo of the '60 squad up. The deal at Laurel County was different. That was first a county-wide merger (4 into 1) and then much later a split (1 into 2) and I can see how difficult that would be although I think honoring your past legacy schools & players helps to heal a lot of wounds and bad feelings. Lord knows that the Laurel County schools (Bush, Hazel Green, Lilly & London) have a ton of tradition from the achievements of those respective schools, their coaches and their players. The first one that comes to mind for me is Raymond Reed and his Hazel Green teams. Coach Joe Harper (Monticello & Wayne County) was from London. So much history based out of there.

Of course they have bigger tests remaining, they currently have three top 20 teams remaining on their schedule according to BGP, but that doesn't lessen the importance of this game to both schools. The rankings support your statement regarding Lincoln but not Boyle which in my mind goes back to matchups again and whether a team is offensive-minded or not. Boyle isn't and I personally think that hurts teams such as them in the "objectively-based" ratings as I definitely consider Boyle one of the top 12th Region contenders). But also - what you're not factoring in is that: (1) The intra-District competition - like Lincoln & Boyle, WC & SW play at least each twice each season; and (2) The long-time intense competition between Coaches Woods and Wright. Might not seem as significant to those of you up in the 45th District but for those of us here in the 48th every game is big and both teams approach it that way. And I note that SW will be visiting Lincoln this coming Monday night and will visit Boyle on the 11th. I seriously doubt that either Coach Jackson or Coach Adams will be regarding them as lightly as you infer.

I would agree that Louisville schools (and to some degree Lexington) don't exactly get the red carpet treatment when they venture east of I-75 and south of I-64. I know at the beginning of the year that the 12th Region officials were calling the "hands off the ball handler" rules by the book which I don't believe was being done everywhere else, at least not from what I've seen thus far. it has let up some as it invariably does every season whenever a rule receives "special emphasis" on being interpreted or enforced differently than in past seasons. The officials feel they've gotten the point across, that maybe the players are responding and certainly by this time the officials have grown weary of listening to the coaches & fans whine about whatever the latest season's point(s) of special emphasis are.

Continued thanks for the time & effort. Nice to see the results of combining them all - very likely a pretty danged good way to cypher out a reasonable rankings result. At least as good as anything else available.

Wayne County travels to Southwestern tonight. They last played on December 13 at Wayne County and WC won 84-74, close enough that one could say that the home court edge was a decisive factor. WC is now 20-0 and SW has won 13 of their last 15 with their only losses to a good West Jessamine team (who has suffered losses to some tough competition) and a highly ranked Doss team. SW has definitely shown strong improvement during the season. A win for WC extends their undefeated season and clinches a bye for them into their District Final. A win for SW would be a boost to SW's season, likely resulting in a tie for the District #1 spot (which would then be resolved by a coin flip) and allowing pundits to question exactly whether WC is as good as previously touted and likely resulting in an immediate drop from top ten status in the various polls & rankings. WC obviously loves to push the pace of the game, averaging 82.0 PPG with an average victory margin of 21.5 PPG while SW is no slouch averaging 75.8 PPG with an average victory margin of 17.5 PPG. Unless whistles & fouls slow the pace the odds are favorable that this will be a high scoring affair, perhaps a very high scoring game with maybe both in the eighties or nineties. What's the consensus here? Will WC manage to beat a very good and continually improving Southwestern at SW? Or will SW continue to build on their impressive record thus far and shake things up in the 12th Region? It might be fair to say that tonight's games of WC at SW and the one further up the road pitting Boyle County vs. Lincoln Count (at LC) could very well be an preview of the teams most likely to make it to the Regional Semi-Finals. Certainly both will be excellent entertainment for any basketball junkie.

Was replying to following comment earlier in this thread - Once you bring them into the discussion I think the topic is fair game to comment on. Wasn't looking to disagree, rather to emphasize that all teams are typically subject to subjective officiating, not just metro teams playing out in the state. Guess I should have pasted the post I was responding to, yeah? Sorry.

I believe that the original KHSAA/Riherd's Scoreboard was designed by one of Frank Riherd's sons (obviously a wiz in such things) and that's why the site ended up being credited to both the KHSAA and Riherd's. Don't know if Riherd's did the follow up work regarding the player stats as that wasn't a feature of the original web site-it was added much later. It IS a huge undertaking to design (and maintain) such a database/spreadsheet setup and sometimes a single change may bring about multiple other changes or even force one to redo much of the original work to accept one or more additional entries or results. I know we're all extremely appreciative of the KHSAA/Riherd's Scoreboard, especially those of us that remember what it was like before it was available (I think it started in 1997). I'm sure that the KHSAA would like to give us everything we'd like to have and if Riherd's is still involved, likewise with them. However, as it is with most everything the $$$ are a factor as somebody has to pay for all of the time & work involved in upgrading or changing the logistics of such a site. Not sure where that money would come from or if the KHSAA and/or Riherd's would be able to get it done w/o having to have a further infusion of $$$ support. I know it took me days & weeks to work up, perfect and adjust (later & often) the Excel templates I used to design to keep my budgets that I had to track & project when I was responsible for a marketing sector for the company for which I used to work.

My personal take is that everyone focuses on the top teams from the metro areas (Louisville & Lexington in particular) because they have winning records and it usually is the case that the Regional Champion will come from one of those teams (and often the State Champion). However, in the 5+ decades I've been observing our game (and attending State Tournaments - not all, but a great many) I have noted that of those metro teams that have .500 (plus or minus) records, many if not most have as much talent as most of the higher ranked non-metro teams from out in the state (not necessarily including NKY, Bowling Green, etc.). Those teams are .500 teams because they may not be as deep in talent or have good team chemistry or the best of coaching, however they are capable of beating a majority of teams out in the state because that talent can rise up and kick your butt when least expected. In fact, out of the top thirty teams in the state (however you determine that which I certainly don't know how) I figure an inordinate number of the teams should be from Louisville, Lexington, NKY, Bowling Green, etc. Huge numbers (of student athletes) and tough inter-city competition makes for a high number of outstanding players. But because Louisville & Lexington's huge talent pool only gets two and one representatives in the State Tournament we all tend to discount the mid-range teams from those areas. Plus if the Herald Leader or Courier Journal allowed their rating systems to crank out rankings that reflected this, then who out in the state would want to buy a newspaper that wasn't listing our (those of from out in the state) teams among the top teams. Bottom line, as a long-time supporter of teams that aren't near a metro area I know that if our teams had to play so much outstanding talent on a regular basis, one of two things or perhaps both would happen. Our record would not be near so glossy (in ANY case) and/or we would become a better & tougher team due to having played better competition. Regarding officials. When you are home you will typically get more calls go your way. When you are perceived as having the better team (especially if you are highly thought of) you will get more calls go your way. When you are playing a team from another region, the team who is the home team will typically have a big edge because the home team coach rates those officials, not the visiting coach. Officials are human and they react much as any of us do - to whatever feels right to them and it can very well be totally unintentional or subconscious. Great officials are better able to overcome such biases, but there are about as many great officials as there are great coaches (draw your own conclusion-) Typically metro schools play a tougher brand of ball because they have more big, fast, quick athletes than do most of the teams out in the state. You go play in their region and you have suddenly entered into a different world as to how the game is officiated and what is allowed. Correspondingly if the metro schools leave their region and go out into the state they can usually expect that the reverse will be true. Less rough play and carrying the ball. All of which is why any team who intends on advancing when & if they make it to the State had better have played some metro ball in the 6th, 7th or 11th regions (and elsewhere) because that's the way it will be called there.

You are spot on. If you aren't able to cross-check your entries by comparing team totals (yours vs. what the site you're entering the numbers at) then you have no way that isn't difficult of knowing whether you've made all correct entries. I've worked stats and budgets for years and all of the spreadsheet models I worked up ALWAYS had a cross-check number that compared the totals in such a manner as to make sure they matched (individual vs. team).

I don't think anyone from Wayne has any gripe that those throughout the state that haven't seen them play or that feel that they haven't played a tough enough schedule (re: Kentucky teams) are uncertain as to how good they are. I've seen them play twenty games and I'm content to wait until we've played Southwestern again (1/31), Knott Co. Central (2/8), Montgomery County (2/9), W-Jess (2/14), Boyle County (2/18) and LexCath (2/21) for you to feel they've earned being in the top twenty. If they can't earn their keep against those teams then you can drop them out of the top twenty . . . but I believe they will hold their own. Between Monticello and Wayne County I've seen a lot of great teams and I find this one unique, not in terms of raw talent (although they definitely have it) but in terms of their competitiveness and basketball IQ. Once you've seen them play you'll know what I mean. If being undefeated doesn't become an obstacle to the point that they quit listening to the coach & staff they could have a very special season.

Warren Central beat Henderson County by 6 on a neutral floor. Hardly a heavy statement as to who the better team is. As I am often told (and have learned there is much truth in) matchups are what making comparing who does what against who a never-ending effort that ultimately might mean team A will usually beat team B, and team B will usually beat team C, but team C may beat team A . . . all because of how the teams matchup against each other.

I'm wondering the same thing. I was impressed with their play over the holidays, but since then they've encountered difficulties. Does anyone have any insight as to what the problem might be? On the other hand, most of the teams they've lost to aren't necessarily easy pickings either, so . . .

Exactly how far Wayne can stretch out their undefeated string should get seriously tested several times over the next two weeks. January 31 - @ #20 Southwestern (7:30 pm) February 8 - #14 Knott County Central @ Lafayette (4:30 pm) February 9 - @ #10 Montgomery County (4:00 pm) * Ratings per Dave Cantrall's 1-26-2014 Rankings. WC also plays Clinton Co. at home on February 4. They play McCreary Central at home on February 7 (Fri) followed by the Knott Co. Central (Sat) & Montgomery Co. (Sun) contests which makes for three games in less than 48 hours - should be a true test of WC's conditioning & competitiveness considering how much they like to run and that they're currently missing their first backcourt sub (injury).

Woods led WC w/28. Game was basically over at halftime.

Agree with both thoughts. Not unusual for teams of the far western part of Kentucky to be somewhat of an unknown quantity as travel distances make it tough for them - Hop-town is 80+ miles from Owensboro, 120+ from E-town, 160+ to most of Louisville and 200+ from Lexington. Geez, many consider Lexington the center of the state yet it is a 3 hour drive from Hop-town and almost 4 hours from Paducah to Lexington. And losing early in any of the metro area big events often does locate you in the secondary gyms where you won't be seen and thus won't gain any respect from those who don't get to watch you play. If Hop-town finishes their season as strongly as they've done so far I'm sure we'll see them challenge all comers at Rupp in March.

spec-u-la-tion (noun) - the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence. I plead guilty. However, the facts are . . . well, there are no facts that will confirm this debate nor most others on this message board. Actually it appears that all parties agree we can't possibly know until post-season play determines what parts of our "speculation" are right and what are wrong. And we may not know then because it is possible that both Wayne County & Lincoln County could fail to win their region and even that they could both be eliminated at the same stage of play or either could win, go to the State Tournament and be eliminated in the first round thus putting in question the validity of either team being a "top ten" team. The results (of either) which would forever leave our discussion in permanent limbo as pure "speculation".

I agree that "power rankings" are objective, however they don't take into account games against out of state teams and Wayne has played at least two (at Gatlinburg) that would be highly ranked in Kentucky. I'm curious what are the numbers for Lincoln's "big three"? Hard to judge how effective each of them is without knowing what they're actually putting up on average. Also, curious as to why Lincoln's coach doesn't post his team's numbers on the KHSAA/Riherd's Scoreboard. It will ultimately play itself out in the Region assuming both make it there and neither gets upset if they do.

Very well deserved honor for Polson, but the timing sure didn't work out very well for W-Jess did it?