What I view as hypocritical is the level of Christians on this board that hold to the firm belief that the free market is the end all be all and that taxes are an abomination and that it is THEIR money to do with what they will. None of that is scriptual, so lets talk about it. I am more than open to being convinced that I am wrong, but you are certainly not going to do that by trying to shut me down because I don't live up to what I think Christ wants me to do. If we can't talk about it until we are living it perfectly, then we cannot talk at all about anything Christian. We surely cannot have another discussion about abortion until everyone who posts about it states that they are willing to adopt the next unwanted child. We cannot talk about the 2nd amendment and the right of self defense when we know that Jesus tells us not to kill - what then should we talk about? Should we talk about your morally superior life where you actually live what God expects of you every day, all day? I apologize that I am not yet there and am continuing to "work out" my faith.

 

Without specifically analyzing every point, I thought this was a very good post. The overall theme (the bolded) is a great point.

Only one "prefect man" ever...and they killed him.

Only one "prefect man" ever...and they killed him.

 

Who is "they"?

Who is "they"?

 

For that matter, how does one come to be called "prefect?" And I thought there were lots of prefects during Roman times?

A perfect man..Jesus who never had a Sin. I have verses if you want to see them.

 

"They" The Jewish leaders had a choice they thought Jesus would(Coming Messiah) free them from the Romans rule. When Jesus told them who he was and the reason he came to earth they (Jews) didn't want to believe him, so they asked the Romans to kill him. If the Jews actually kill Jesus they would have him stoned.

So when I ask why "we" don't live this way, I am being morally superior? I have a certain perspective on what I believe are Jesus thoughts to OUR collective economics. I post a thread for discussion about that and it makes me sound morally superior - you have an odd view of a discussion board. I don't recall ever calling you out in that since. All Christians appear to be hypocrites, because none of us are perfect. Of course I have not taken a vow of poverty, that doesn't mean I can't talk about my understanding of how Jesus wants us to live. I also believe who doesn't want me to sin in any since, and yet I do it all of the time - does that make me a hypocrite, or does it make me someone who is struggling daily with my Christianity. I ask you again do you deny yourself daily, because if you don't and you claim to be a christian, then you too are a hypocrite - right? Of course not.

 

What I view as hypocritical is the level of Christians on this board that hold to the firm belief that the free market is the end all be all and that taxes are an abomination and that it is THEIR money to do with what they will. None of that is scriptual, so lets talk about it. I am more than open to being convinced that I am wrong, but you are certainly not going to do that by trying to shut me down because I don't live up to what I think Christ wants me to do. If we can't talk about it until we are living it perfectly, then we cannot talk at all about anything Christian. We surely cannot have another discussion about abortion until everyone who posts about it states that they are willing to adopt the next unwanted child. We cannot talk about the 2nd amendment and the right of self defense when we know that Jesus tells us not to kill - what then should we talk about? Should we talk about your morally superior life where you actually live what God expects of you every day, all day? I apologize that I am not yet there and am continuing to "work out" my faith.

 

In the Old Testament the Hebrews who were wealthy were supposed to leave grain in the edge of the fields for the poor to pick on their own. They were not supposed to pick it for them and give it to them. My interpretation of these scriptures are that we are supposed to provide ability for people to enable themselves, not provide enabling for people to live off of others without personal sacrifice. As far as the word kill goes, kill in old text, according to many theological historians, reffered to murder and not self-defense.

According to many theological historians . . . so you are interpreting the scripture and not taking it literally. THANK YOU.

 

As to the Hebrews of history, you are right they did not give handouts, they just plowed the fields, planted the seeds, irrigated it, weeded it, and let it grow, other than that they did nothing.

Everyone interprets the scriptures, whether they admit it or not. That is always the difficulty in citing books like the Bible and Koran.

According to many theological historians . . . so you are interpreting the scripture and not taking it literally. THANK YOU.

 

As to the Hebrews of history, you are right they did not give handouts, they just plowed the fields, planted the seeds, irrigated it, weeded it, and let it grow, other than that they did nothing.

So you are saying that knowing the definition of a word is personal interpretation of the scripture? There is a big difference between that and saying that a portion of the scripture was Paul's opinion and did not come from God. As far as the Hebrews go, it seems very clear that the message is not to give enableing handouts, but rather give the opportunity for help through work and effort.

So you are saying that knowing the definition of a word is personal interpretation of the scripture? There is a big difference between that and saying that a portion of the scripture was Paul's opinion and did not come from God. As far as the Hebrews go, it seems very clear that the message is not to give enableing handouts, but rather give the opportunity for help through work and effort.

 

"If a man will not work, he shall not eat" (2 Thess. 3:10) backs this up.

 

Ace mentions interpretation of Scripture quite a bit, and in some cases, I think there is a tendency for some of us to be overly dogmatic about verses or sections of the Bible where it's difficult to tell whether something was a permanent lesson or a cultural example.

 

But for me, the greatest flaw made by both conservative & liberal types when reading Scripture is the tendency to take one verse or a handful of verses and build an entire theology around it/them. In the one I mentioned from 2 Thess. 3:10, if I just read that by itself, I could come to the conclusion that any government assistance program is a violation of the Bible--and I would be wrong. Conversely, I could look at "Do not judge or you too will be judged" and inaccurately assume that any judgment of any kind is sinful--and I would be wrong.

 

I believe one of the most important verses in the Bible is where we are told to "rightly divide the word of truth." We have to read God's word as a whole and not just pull little nuggets out here and there because they help support a certain belief we might have. I've made that mistake before and try to do my best to avoid repeating it.

"I remember a conference in New York City. The topic was social justice. Assembled for the meetign were theologians, pastors, priests, nuns, and lay church leaders. At one point a native American stood up, looked out over the most white audience, and said, 'regardless of what the New Testament says, most Christians are materialists with no experience of the Spirit. Regardless of what the New Testament says, most Christians are individualists with no real experience of community.' He pause for a moment and then continued: 'Let's pretend that you were all Christians. If you were Christians, you would no longer accumulate. You would share everything you had. you would actually love one another. And you would treat each other as if you were family.' His eyes wer peircing as he asked, "Why don't you do that? Why don't you live that way?". . .

 

People can read what our scriptures say, and they can see how Christians live. The gulf between the two has created an enormous credibility gap.

 

Jim Wallis

 

Why don't we live that way??

 

That Native American must have been on heavy Peyote, because I've never met any group of people as a whole that live like this.

"If a man will not work, he shall not eat" (2 Thess. 3:10) backs this up.

 

Ace mentions interpretation of Scripture quite a bit, and in some cases, I think there is a tendency for some of us to be overly dogmatic about verses or sections of the Bible where it's difficult to tell whether something was a permanent lesson or a cultural example.

 

But for me, the greatest flaw made by both conservative & liberal types when reading Scripture is the tendency to take one verse or a handful of verses and build an entire theology around it/them. In the one I mentioned from 2 Thess. 3:10, if I just read that by itself, I could come to the conclusion that any government assistance program is a violation of the Bible--and I would be wrong. Conversely, I could look at "Do not judge or you too will be judged" and inaccurately assume that any judgment of any kind is sinful--and I would be wrong.

 

I believe one of the most important verses in the Bible is where we are told to "rightly divide the word of truth." We have to read God's word as a whole and not just pull little nuggets out here and there because they help support a certain belief we might have. I've made that mistake before and try to do my best to avoid repeating it.

 

Fair enough.

That Native American must have been on heavy Peyote, because I've never met any group of people as a whole that live like this.

 

You might want to brush up on some of your Native American histories and cultures.

To be honest, I am probably more guilty than most.

I am there with you and agree with you. Meaning claim to be Christian because they recited a prayer or was dunked in water and believe that is all they had to do but their actions/works do not show that they want to be a follower of Christ.

 

Many, many want Christ to be their Savior.

Few want Christ to be the Lord of their life.

 

And too many times for my liking, I am guilty of this.

Drives me bonkers.

I believe it most certainly depends on the circumstances. If it is "I am right you are wrong and you are going to hell" then I think it is unloving, but that is my opinion. If I am in a situation and someone asks me why I live my life the way I do and I explain to them that I am trying to live like Jesus - to bring His Kingdom of Love to earth, well that is a completely different situation.

 

For my money salvation is NOT just about going to heaven. When Jesus read from the scrolls the scripture from Isaiah, He didn't preach about going to heaven, He talked about taking care of the needy. He said that was his purpose.

 

I think we live more like Jesus and "witness" when work for justice for all - regardless of thier faith or belief.

 

You don't believe that was his sole purpose, do you?