ALL fall short.... The rich and the poor. No single act is going to get you to heaven... You can give all you have away and still fall short.. You can sit in the pews every Sunday and still fall short.. You can be a criminal, or just a terrible person and still receive God's grace... You have to be willing to accept it..

ALL fall short.... The rich and the poor. No single act is going to get you to heaven... You can give all you have away and still fall short.. You can sit in the pews every Sunday and still fall short.. You can be a criminal, or just a terrible person and still receive God's grace... You have to be willing to accept it..

 

This kind of thinking can certainly keep you from trying.

Poor wording on my part Ace... I meant to say you have to willing to accept God's grace..

Indeed, about half of Jesus' parables dealt in some way w/ money.

 

Jesus also talked much about the Pharisees that liked to try to trick him.

 

I'd love to see His answers on BGP........Rockmom and Ace would be asking the questions.......

Jesus also talked much about the Pharisees that liked to try to trick him.

 

I'd love to see His answers on BGP........Rockmom and Ace would be asking the questions.......

 

I think you have me and Rockmom confused with someone else. The Pharisees were the religious right, who were about creeds and believing the "right" thing. They wanted Jesus to follow all the rules. Jesus wanted to love all the people. I am not a literalist, and I don't think it is about all of the rules.

I think you have me and Rockmom confused with someone else. The Pharisees were the religious right, who were about creeds and believing the "right" thing. They wanted Jesus to follow all the rules. Jesus wanted to love all the people. I am not a literalist, and I don't think it is about all of the rules.

 

Certainly the Pharisees were strict legalists--the moral police of Jesus' day. But it wasn't so much about following rules as it was about following their rules. They took God's O.T. law and expounded on it. The law said not to work on the Sabbath. The Pharisees took it upon themselves to define what work meant. Thus, if a chicken laid an egg on the Sabbath, you couldn't eat the egg because the chicken labored to produce it. No joke. There were some 600-plus rules the Pharisees tried to enforce on the people.

 

In addition, the Pharisees were more about outward actions & appearances than they were inner purity and attitude. They would fast three times a day, which was good, but they would draw attention to themselves so they could show off their so-called righteousness. They did the same thing when praying and giving--calling attention to their good deeds rather than practicing those things out of genuine faith & gratitude. We have no disagreement there.

 

Nor do we disagree on Jesus' desire that we love people. He did say that love would be the primary characteristic that unbelievers would use to identify believers--"By this all men will know you are my disciples, if you love one another" (John 13:35).

 

But without question, there are rules and commands that we are expected to follow. There is such a thing as sin, which separates us from God, and eventually leads to death. Jesus practiced tolerance to a certain extent, but he did not tolerate sinful behavior. This explains why, when the religious people wanted to stone the woman who had committed adultery in John 8, Jesus stated to them, "You who are without sin cast the first stone." That was tolerance. But when the crowd dropped their rocks and left, leaving only Jesus and the adulterous woman, he told her that there was no one there to condemn her; nor was he there to condemn her. But his parting words were, "Go now and leave your life of sin."

 

Jesus was, is, and always will be about love. But he was also about obedience to God. He was both tolerant & truthful at the same time.

Which of the commandments is the greatest - Love God will all you got

The second is - Love your neighbor as yourself - ALL other commandments flow from these.

 

Paraphrased words of Christ.

 

As to the woman - remarkably he protected her civil rights in the face of her "sin". The American religious right wants to deny people their civil rights because of what they perceive as sin.

 

The problem we run into is that what you perceive as disobedience to God and what I do may be vastly different, the one thing that we can agree upon is that if we are loving of everyone - even Muslims and Illegal Aliens - then we are more likely following God's will than if we are constantly pointing out the "sin" of others.

I don't think you & I disagree about love's importance in the life of a Christ-follower. If there's no love, then there's really nothing at all.

 

Where we disagree is how we define obedience/disobedience, as you already stated. I think another area where we might disagree is your last comment about "pointing out the 'sin' in others." John the Baptist made his name for calling out the sin in others and urging them to repent. I don't know if there's a more fiery character in Scripture than he. And yet, Jesus said of John that he was the greatest man who had ever lived up to that point (see Matthew 11:11).

 

Sometimes, the most loving thing a person can do is point out sin in the life of another. Now, when doing this, the sin-pointer-outer needs to have pure motives (i.e. changing wrong or destructive behavior) & also tact or love. The Bible says to "speak the truth in love." That's why Jesus so often came down hard on the Pharisees. They pointed out sin because they liked finding it. They enjoyed cutting people down. When they put others down, they lifted themselves up. They would be an example of those who point out sin for all the wrong reasons.

 

From my vantage point, the most un-loving thing I could do is observe destructive behavior in the life of a good friend & fail to point that out. In such an instance, I need to practice the second greatest commandment of Jesus that you alluded to--loving my neighbor as myself. If I was participating in some kind of activity that was detrimental, I would want someone to take the necessary steps to correct me.

I don't think you & I disagree about love's importance in the life of a Christ-follower. If there's no love, then there's really nothing at all.

 

Where we disagree is how we define obedience/disobedience, as you already stated. I think another area where we might disagree is your last comment about "pointing out the 'sin' in others." John the Baptist made his name for calling out the sin in others and urging them to repent. I don't know if there's a more fiery character in Scripture than he. And yet, Jesus said of John that he was the greatest man who had ever lived up to that point (see Matthew 11:11).

 

Sometimes, the most loving thing a person can do is point out sin in the life of another. Now, when doing this, the sin-pointer-outer needs to have pure motives (i.e. changing wrong or destructive behavior) & also tact or love. The Bible says to "speak the truth in love." That's why Jesus so often came down hard on the Pharisees. They pointed out sin because they liked finding it. They enjoyed cutting people down. When they put others down, they lifted themselves up. They would be an example of those who point out sin for all the wrong reasons.

 

From my vantage point, the most un-loving thing I could do is observe destructive behavior in the life of a good friend & fail to point that out. In such an instance, I need to practice the second greatest commandment of Jesus that you alluded to--loving my neighbor as myself. If I was participating in some kind of activity that was detrimental, I would want someone to take the necessary steps to correct me.

 

Ahhhh but we do agree. Especially since you talked about the good friend. Where I struggle with what I see is "All Homosexuals are going to satan and we should deny them their civil rights because they are sinning." "If you drink alchohol you are going to satan" - Dancing is a sin - All Muslims are going to satan"

 

That has nothing to do with loving one another and speaking out of Christian love.

Ahhhh but we do agree. Especially since you talked about the good friend. Where I struggle with what I see is "All Homosexuals are going to satan and we should deny them their civil rights because they are sinning." "If you drink alchohol you are going to satan" - Dancing is a sin - All Muslims are going to satan"

 

That has nothing to do with loving one another and speaking out of Christian love.

 

Is it unloving for me to tell someone that Jesus is the only way to heaven/the Father?

Randy, if you don't their blood will be on your hands, and that is scriptual. And if you do tell them and they reject The Gospel you will be blessed for trying to do so, and thats real important. Jesus said.."No one comes to the Father except thru me".

 

Now when we do this do it in a nice way and not judgemental attitude. 1st Peter 3;15. Everything we do we are based on the WORD. Hope this helps.

Is it unloving for me to tell someone that Jesus is the only way to heaven/the Father?

 

I believe it most certainly depends on the circumstances. If it is "I am right you are wrong and you are going to hell" then I think it is unloving, but that is my opinion. If I am in a situation and someone asks me why I live my life the way I do and I explain to them that I am trying to live like Jesus - to bring His Kingdom of Love to earth, well that is a completely different situation.

 

For my money salvation is NOT just about going to heaven. When Jesus read from the scrolls the scripture from Isaiah, He didn't preach about going to heaven, He talked about taking care of the needy. He said that was his purpose.

 

I think we live more like Jesus and "witness" when work for justice for all - regardless of thier faith or belief.

I believe it most certainly depends on the circumstances. If it is "I am right you are wrong and you are going to hell" then I think it is unloving, but that is my opinion. If I am in a situation and someone asks me why I live my life the way I do and I explain to them that I am trying to live like Jesus - to bring His Kingdom of Love to earth, well that is a completely different situation.

 

For my money salvation is NOT just about going to heaven. When Jesus read from the scrolls the scripture from Isaiah, He didn't preach about going to heaven, He talked about taking care of the needy. He said that was his purpose.

 

I think we live more like Jesus and "witness" when work for justice for all - regardless of thier faith or belief.

 

On the first bolded, I don't know that I'd say it's unloving, but there's certainly a better way to do it. In the past, people did respond to that kind of message--the hell, fire, & brimstone types. I think we need to talk about Hell, but it should be done with a tear & not with glee or rage.

 

On the second bolded, I guess this is the one thing where either I misunderstand or just outright disagree--perhaps you can clarify. Jesus stated his mission as being to "seek and save what was lost." Parables about a lost son, lost sheep, & lost coin all illustrate that purpose--how far God will go to save people who are spiritually lost and separated from God. I'm not denying that Jesus called for and implemented caring for the poor--that's very obvious. But at the same time, Jesus not did come to be a bread Messiah, as evidenced by his refusal to feed the 5,000 the second time around. He essentially told them, "You want bread again, but that's not why I came."

 

Again, our common ground is the importance of love. So if you're saying that love is the primary tool to be a witness for Christ, then I wholeheartedly agree. But if you're saying Jesus' primary purpose for coming here was to care for the poor, then I would very strongly disagree.

When I call you out dude, come call me out. Read the thread, see what I have posted. I make no claim to be Jesus, yet I can talk about what I believe are his expectations for me, even if I fall short. Under your guise, no one should ever claim to be a Christian because they are not going to meet the highest expectations. Do you "deny yourself daily?"

 

Point out where I said anything that you attribute to me in this post. You're the one who always tries to sound morally superior to anyone who doesn't think exactly like you do. All I have done is point out what I believe are the hypocritical aspects of your positions. I don't claim to be morally superior to anyone, nor do I claim to KNOW what God wants or expects of me. I know what I believe He expects and try to live that way.

Point out where I said anything that you attribute to me in this post. You're the one who always tries to sound morally superior to anyone who doesn't think exactly like you do. All I have done is point out what I believe are the hypocritical aspects of your positions. I don't claim to be morally superior to anyone, nor do I claim to KNOW what God wants or expects of me. I know what I believe He expects and try to live that way.

 

So when I ask why "we" don't live this way, I am being morally superior? I have a certain perspective on what I believe are Jesus thoughts to OUR collective economics. I post a thread for discussion about that and it makes me sound morally superior - you have an odd view of a discussion board. I don't recall ever calling you out in that since. All Christians appear to be hypocrites, because none of us are perfect. Of course I have not taken a vow of poverty, that doesn't mean I can't talk about my understanding of how Jesus wants us to live. I also believe who doesn't want me to sin in any since, and yet I do it all of the time - does that make me a hypocrite, or does it make me someone who is struggling daily with my Christianity. I ask you again do you deny yourself daily, because if you don't and you claim to be a christian, then you too are a hypocrite - right? Of course not.

 

What I view as hypocritical is the level of Christians on this board that hold to the firm belief that the free market is the end all be all and that taxes are an abomination and that it is THEIR money to do with what they will. None of that is scriptual, so lets talk about it. I am more than open to being convinced that I am wrong, but you are certainly not going to do that by trying to shut me down because I don't live up to what I think Christ wants me to do. If we can't talk about it until we are living it perfectly, then we cannot talk at all about anything Christian. We surely cannot have another discussion about abortion until everyone who posts about it states that they are willing to adopt the next unwanted child. We cannot talk about the 2nd amendment and the right of self defense when we know that Jesus tells us not to kill - what then should we talk about? Should we talk about your morally superior life where you actually live what God expects of you every day, all day? I apologize that I am not yet there and am continuing to "work out" my faith.