5 year old Tommy shouldn't have to starve because his father and mother don't want to work.

 

This is when situations become tragic. I've been involved with numerous people who are seeking assistance, and I know full well they are abusing the generosity of others (by feeding their own addictions). And there sits a couple of kids that are malnourished and poorly dressed (and I don't mean they lack designer clothes...I mean they're dressed for summer on a 35 degree day).

 

And the question I ask myself is: How do you provide the help where it is most needed?

 

I understand there are people who are really suffering and desperately need assistance. But speaking just from my own personal experience--with full realization that this may not be the case nationwide--the people I've encountered requesting assistance are in the condition they are in of their own accord. Tragically, the kids under their roof suffer for it too.

^^Much of Big City poverty isn't self-inflicted. You have generations of impoverished people, someone loses a job and ends up homeless with their family. I don't think most of the poor people in the US did it to themselves, many times they are victims of circumstance.

 

I don't think that most of the poor in America have done it to themselves. It may seem like that sometimes, but I don't think it's the case.

I have asked numerous times on here for someone to give me some valid numbers on those people scamming our welfare system, or even the number of people who are on it, not scamming, but shouldn't be on it. I NEVER GET AN ANSWER.

 

I have friends that work in SSI disability determination here in Frankfort, and b/c of my job I also get to be a 'reference' on some of those applications. My friends do not just hand out money, and I never complete a form saying someone needs it if they don't. So I would say the abusers are few and far between.

 

I also have pointed out time and time again that we rail against welfare abuses and welfare makes up about 2% of our federal budget. Cutting out welfare fraud and abuse will have NO impact on our economy at all, will not change the budget deficit and essentially does nothing, but sometimes gets a politician elected. That is about it.

Didn't Bill Clinton basically end welfare? Or am I mistaken?

 

Somebody set me straight here.

I have asked numerous times on here for someone to give me some valid numbers on those people scamming our welfare system, or even the number of people who are on it, not scamming, but shouldn't be on it. I NEVER GET AN ANSWER.

 

I have friends that work in SSI disability determination here in Frankfort, and b/c of my job I also get to be a 'reference' on some of those applications. My friends do not just hand out money, and I never complete a form saying someone needs it if they don't. So I would say the abusers are few and far between.

 

I also have pointed out time and time again that we rail against welfare abuses and welfare makes up about 2% of our federal budget. Cutting out welfare fraud and abuse will have NO impact on our economy at all, will not change the budget deficit and essentially does nothing, but sometimes gets a politician elected. That is about it.

 

Do you happen to have a link to your 2% statement?

Thanks

Just thought I'd update the FALLACIES of the thread title once more.

 

I've already mentioned the email to a rally I received.

 

Well I just got off the phone with another "Pastor's Group" inviting me to an October 30th rally against "Socialized Health Care" for the country.

 

SINCE NO ONE SEEMS TO CARE ABOUT THE FACT THAT BOTH PARTIES ARE DOING IT, I THOUGHT I'D TYPE THIS SENTENCE IN CAPS AND SEE IF ANYONE WANTS TO NOTICE THIS TIME.

 

:thumb:

Do you happen to have a link to your 2% statement?

Thanks

 

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-runawaywelfare.htm this one says 1%

 

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_money_has_been_spent_on_welfare_since_inception This one says 6%

 

This one is just for fun: http://violettespage.com/welfare.shtml

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_spending how about 3.2%

 

Whatever the number you find, it is very low.

Come to Martinsville and you will see it being done. :thumb:

 

BTW, that is with 20% unemployment. That means that the "means" to the projects have been drastically lower than normal.

 

BTW, you still have not commented on the fact that your thread title is slanted. I provided a place where the VA GOP is rallying ministers to speak out vs. the Health Bill.

 

How is the thread title slanted? The article that I cited was entitled Democrats pushing Health Care and Global Warming on Moral Grounds. I thought that the title represented the nature of the article that was the basis of the thread. How is it misleading?

 

I am glad that you have included an article from the other perspective.

I don't think that believers of Hindu necessarily would help the poor, as there is a pretty deep caste system there. Satanism doesn't have a place to help the poor in their religion, or at least I don't think it is specified. And as there is no set religion in the United States, I don't think we can say that all help should come from churches, it just excludes too many people and is unconstitutional IMO.

 

As for the bolded, you have to take care of the poor by choice because often they have children they still have to provide for. I know what you're saying, I just don't think it is unrealistic to not have welfare for that reason. 5 year old Tommy shouldn't have to starve because his father and mother don't want to work.

 

As far as children, I have said that I have no problem with children on a type of government health care through vocational school/college/technical school years.

Charity from a faith or a religion should not be given to only the adherents of such faith. It can and should be given in the name of Christ without strings attached.

 

I could be behind this.

No doubt about that. But, IMO, a person shouldn't have to go to a church to get food. Most don't care to or wouldn't care to, but I don't think that they should or could be the only means of help for people in need.

 

The clothes closet at my church, you don't have to be a member of attend our church to get free clothes from it. You have to have a need and come and visit it.

If by "no strings attached" you mean that recipients are not required to convert to a particular faith prior to being fed or clothed or sheltered I agree.

 

If by "no strings attached" you imply there shouldn't be some consideration given to modifying certain destructive habits, patterns, addictions or other harmful behaviors, I disagree strongly.

 

I can see loving and welcoming individuals... and especially teens and children with no strings attached initially. BUT as good doers become aware of each individual's wrong behaviors... it would be criminal (to me) not to begin to encourage and ultimately require some type of behavior modification--over time--that would lift them out of the sewer they are in. Not as a guilt ridden weapon, not as a strong armed tactic forcing conversion, but as a vehicle fueled by love, hope and the expectation of a higher quality of life. You treat people like that and there will be more actual conversions, more truly transformed lives, more of a rising tide that will lift all the ships... :thumb:

 

Precisely. :thumb:

 

Again, I am right there with you guys.

How is the thread title slanted? The article that I cited was entitled Democrats pushing Health Care and Global Warming on Moral Grounds. I thought that the title represented the nature of the article that was the basis of the thread. How is it misleading?

 

I am glad that you have included an article from the other perspective.

 

Post #81

Just thought I'd update the FALLACIES of the thread title once more.

 

I've already mentioned the email to a rally I received.

 

Well I just got off the phone with another "Pastor's Group" inviting me to an October 30th rally against "Socialized Health Care" for the country.

 

SINCE NO ONE SEEMS TO CARE ABOUT THE FACT THAT BOTH PARTIES ARE DOING IT, I THOUGHT I'D TYPE THIS SENTENCE IN CAPS AND SEE IF ANYONE WANTS TO NOTICE THIS TIME.

 

Which was preceeded by Post #43

 

Thought this would be closer to the intent of the title of the thread. Got this in an email just today.

 

Our pastors are standing up for freedom ! Please contact your pastor and plan to attend this important meeting tomorrow. 5th District pastors to hold press conference urging Congressman Perriello and Senators Webb and Warner to oppose the health care bill

Martinsville, Va. ( TOMORROW, Oct. 28, 2009) – Local pastors representing churches in the 5th Congressional District will speak out against the proposed national health care plan at 11:30 a.m. at the Old County Courthouse in Martinsville on Wednesday (Oct. 28). All pastors are welcome to attend and be heard. See below for more information.

 

 

5th District pastors to hold press conference urging Congressman Perriello and Senators Webb and Warner to oppose the health care bill

 

Martinsville, Va. (Oct. 27, 2009) – Local pastors representing churches in the 5th Congressional district will speak out against the proposed national health care plan at 11:30 a.m. at the Old County Courthouse in Martinsville on Wednesday (Oct. 28).

 

“Our pastors are speaking against the proposed health care plan because it violates many principles on which this country is based, but is also offensive to our Christian beliefs,” said Aaron Evans, director of Spreading the Gospel Light Ministries. “It appears that this proposed legislation would be a disaster for our people, morally, spiritually and financially.”

Evans said the pastors recognize a need for health care reforms, but the proposed plan is too flawed and should be scrapped. “We cannot stand silent in light of the outrageous violations of the dignity of the human person that are contained in this plan,” Evans added. “We are especially concerned about the inclusion of coverage for abortion and euthanasia in the plan, as well as the dismantling of many of the best parts of our current system, and the horrendous financial cost to future generations.”

 

Another group of pastors from the 9th District will hold a press conference at 3:30 p.m. in Wytheville, VA in front of the Courthouse and pastors from the 2nd Congressional District will hold a press conference at the conference room in the Central Library in Virginia Beach on Thursday at 2:00 PM.

 

 

It's not all ONE SIDED evidently.

 

All of which leads me back to my premise:

 

IT'S HAPPENING ON BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE.

 

Thank you. :thumb:

Post #81

Just thought I'd update the FALLACIES of the thread title once more.

 

I've already mentioned the email to a rally I received.

 

Well I just got off the phone with another "Pastor's Group" inviting me to an October 30th rally against "Socialized Health Care" for the country.

 

SINCE NO ONE SEEMS TO CARE ABOUT THE FACT THAT BOTH PARTIES ARE DOING IT, I THOUGHT I'D TYPE THIS SENTENCE IN CAPS AND SEE IF ANYONE WANTS TO NOTICE THIS TIME.

 

 

Which was preceeded by Post #43

 

Thought this would be closer to the intent of the title of the thread. Got this in an email just today.

 

Our pastors are standing up for freedom ! Please contact your pastor and plan to attend this important meeting tomorrow. 5th District pastors to hold press conference urging Congressman Perriello and Senators Webb and Warner to oppose the health care bill

Martinsville, Va. ( TOMORROW, Oct. 28, 2009) – Local pastors representing churches in the 5th Congressional District will speak out against the proposed national health care plan at 11:30 a.m. at the Old County Courthouse in Martinsville on Wednesday (Oct. 28). All pastors are welcome to attend and be heard. See below for more information.

 

 

5th District pastors to hold press conference urging Congressman Perriello and Senators Webb and Warner to oppose the health care bill

 

Martinsville, Va. (Oct. 27, 2009) – Local pastors representing churches in the 5th Congressional district will speak out against the proposed national health care plan at 11:30 a.m. at the Old County Courthouse in Martinsville on Wednesday (Oct. 28).

 

“Our pastors are speaking against the proposed health care plan because it violates many principles on which this country is based, but is also offensive to our Christian beliefs,” said Aaron Evans, director of Spreading the Gospel Light Ministries. “It appears that this proposed legislation would be a disaster for our people, morally, spiritually and financially.”

Evans said the pastors recognize a need for health care reforms, but the proposed plan is too flawed and should be scrapped. “We cannot stand silent in light of the outrageous violations of the dignity of the human person that are contained in this plan,” Evans added. “We are especially concerned about the inclusion of coverage for abortion and euthanasia in the plan, as well as the dismantling of many of the best parts of our current system, and the horrendous financial cost to future generations.”

 

Another group of pastors from the 9th District will hold a press conference at 3:30 p.m. in Wytheville, VA in front of the Courthouse and pastors from the 2nd Congressional District will hold a press conference at the conference room in the Central Library in Virginia Beach on Thursday at 2:00 PM.

 

 

It's not all ONE SIDED evidently.

 

 

All of which leads me back to my premise:

 

IT'S HAPPENING ON BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE.

 

Thank you. :thumb:

 

Okay, I agree with you. So?

 

There is no fallacy in the thread title. Would it have been sufficient for you that in an article on the Democrats appealing on moral grounds for them to have talked about what the GOP is doing?

 

The easy point to your point that I am not seeing is that Democrats continue to tell GOP to quit using their faith to guide decisions. We have seen it in thread after thread on here that people tell me that my faith shouldn't drive my political votes. So, I don't believe it is surprising to anyone that the GOP is using faiths to make their point.

 

What is surprising is that the Democrats are now appealing to people's faiths on issues that are important to them.

 

Think they will appeal to voters to continue to make abortion legal based on moral grounds?

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-runawaywelfare.htm this one says 1%

 

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_money_has_been_spent_on_welfare_since_inception This one says 6%

 

This one is just for fun: http://violettespage.com/welfare.shtml

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_spending how about 3.2%

 

Whatever the number you find, it is very low.

 

Thanks for taking time to post these. Are you saying that these links state that the percentage is of government spending on welfare is around 2%? They seemed to say to me, that the percentage assigned was a percentage of GDP, not of government spending. But I could be wrong. I was never very good with charts and graphs.

 

Thanks again for posting the links.