I am wary of the government, just as you are, the last 8 years has made me very cynical, however, I am willing to allow the government to work on assuring our citizens that they can get health insurance.

 

Ironically, this exact point makes you to the liberals as you claim the conservatives are to Hannity, Beck, etc. You go on what Olberman and the like have told you.

 

Or are you against that Christian President that sent more aid and did more for the starvation and the poor conditions in Africa (the ACTUAL STARVATION and POOR CONDITIONS GOING ON IN THIS WORLD) than any OTHER PRESIDENT EVER. W sent more financial aid and did more things than any President EVER including all the Democrats.

Jesus also said that God's kingdom had come to earth, not fully, but it was here. He also did not have the woman ask fogiveness of her sins before he intervened on behalf of her health (as you would have people before you give them health care in the churches). He ate with tax collectors and even said the samaritans were your friend. There were no pre-conditions to Jesus acting on behalf of anyone and or everyone. He preached much less on "converting sinners" than he did on railing against the economic oppression of his day and the divide between the have and the have nots going so far as to say, before the rich young man could get to heaven that he had to sell all he had and give it to the poor.

 

Seems like Jesus gave the 12 Apostles instructions on what to do and some conditions on what/when the Apostles would do things for people.

 

 

Luke 9

Jesus Sends Out the Twelve

1When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases, 2and he sent them out to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick. 3He told them: "Take nothing for the journey—no staff, no bag, no bread, no money, no extra tunic. 4Whatever house you enter, stay there until you leave that town. 5If people do not welcome you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave their town, as a testimony against them." 6So they set out and went from village to village, preaching the gospel and healing people everywhere.

Now, should a church have preconditions before they help a person. 99% of the time, NO. Resounding no.

 

But for example, if a person has broken into the church and stolen from them, I think it is safe to assume that if that person asks for the keys to the church, the church can say no to them.

 

And remember Ace, I am all for the church helping people out. Our difference is that you want to put your faith in the government doing it. I want to put my faith into Jesus' church and the members of his church doing it.

 

We have a very small difference in opinion in the actual help of people. But rather the vehicle to that help.

Addressing the environmental aspect of the topic of this thread, I found an interesting article in The Record.

 

Faith communities urge creation of green jobs

 

As the economy begins its slow recovery from the recession, a nationwide coalition of faith groups is calling on policymakers to ensure that the new jobs being created give people the chance to become self-sufficient.

The call for jobs that provide a living wage, comprehensive benefits and safe working conditions came during a nationwide conference call marking the second Fighting Poverty with Faith initiative Oct. 14-21.

New jobs, especially those connected to the rapidly growing economy revolving around energy conservation and pollution reduction, must provide laid-off workers and low-income families the opportunity to shed the title of working poor by having a well-paying job, said Father Larry Snyder, executive director of Catholic Charities USA.

“As people of faith we can make a difference to develop and shape a new American economy, one that provides a living wage and one that provides the benefits where people don’t have to rely on government benefits,” Father Snyder said.

There was a good article in the Enquirer last week or the week before about the number of schools in NKY that is using solar, geothermal, other forms of green energy to heat/power different parts of the school.

 

Why wouldn't it seem more cost efficient in the long run for government buildings to be powered by renewable, efficient cost methods to heat the buildings like a solar power panels or geothermal?

Regarding the health care issue:

 

Crunch time nears for health reform, but hurdles remain for Catholics

We continue to have concerns about the treatment of the poor and immigrants" in the bills, Richard Doerflinger, associate director of the USCCB Secretariat for Pro-Life Activities, told Catholic News Service Oct. 21. "But the abortion issue is the one that is most intractable to us."

 

The bishops' message on abortion and conscience rights in health care has been clear, despite some claims that they have changed their position or don't really understand current law.

 

"Our position has been very consistent," Doerflinger said. "It's always been that (the final health reform) bill must maintain the status quo on abortion and conscience rights. It should not be used as a vehicle for expanding or changing federal policies."

 

While there is an obvious opposition to any policy that supports funding abortion:

 

The latest push by U.S. Catholics to achieve comprehensive health care reform has plenty of precedent.

 

In their 1981 pastoral letter, "Health and Health Care," the bishops said, "Christian people have a responsibility to actively participate in the shaping and executing of public policy that relates to health care." They described the letter as "a renewal of the church's broad commitment to this most important subject."

 

In a sentence that still resonates today, the bishops said in 1981: "Health care is so important for full human dignity and so necessary for the proper development of life that it is a fundamental right of every human being."

Republicans have used Christianity to push there agenda as well. IMO, religion has no part of politics.

Republicans have used Christianity to push there agenda as well. IMO, religion has no part of politics.

 

To some degree I agree with you. However, I also will agree in advance to some degree with what lbbc will post, and that religion shapes one's values, and as such, is impossible to fully separate from an individuals political views. (lbbc won't put it that way, but that's the part I agree with. )

That quote about God being popular these days cracks me up.

 

1) Funny how they are all for separation of church and state until it is something they believe they can use to further their purposes.

2) ABSOLUTELY the Christians should be concerned and pushing for help. BUT, it should be done by churches in the name of Jesus Christ. The government will do it in the name of the USA government and the love of Jesus will not be allowed to have any of the credit. Remember it is the government themselves who have said that the "J" word cannot be mentioned. We are told in Scriptures that people will know Jesus because of what we do. And since the government will not allow the "J" word to be said, well they have boxed themselves right into a corner.

3) Simply, they want us to give up what Christ calls us to do and let the government do it for us.

 

Which liberal/democrat policy or agenda are you referring to in the bolded?

To some degree I agree with you. However, I also will agree in advance to some degree with what lbbc will post, and that religion shapes one's values, and as such, is impossible to fully separate from an individuals political views. (lbbc won't put it that way, but that's the part I agree with. )

 

What RM says goes double for me.:thumb::bunny:

Which liberal/democrat policy or agenda are you referring to in the bolded?

 

Any that Jesus Church should be doing and have not done then let government take it over.

 

Let's start with food stamps and the like.

 

Churches in each community could easily support food banks where people could pick up food and meals.

 

And we wouldn't need food stamps.

Any that Jesus Church should be doing and have not done then let government take it over.

 

Let's start with food stamps and the like.

 

Churches in each community could easily support food banks where people could pick up food and meals.

 

And we wouldn't need food stamps.

 

Ok thanks. I just didn't know which thing you were talking about.

 

And it would be great for churches and organizations to provide things like that, but in some areas it would be rough for a church to provide enough. I would also argue that if it was going to happen from God, that the churches around the US would already be doing it. Food stamps are necesary today, IMO, there is no reason for anyone in America, especially a child to go hungry.

Jesus also said that God's kingdom had come to earth, not fully, but it was here. He also did not have the woman ask fogiveness of her sins before he intervened on behalf of her health (as you would have people before you give them health care in the churches). He ate with tax collectors and even said the samaritans were your friend. There were no pre-conditions to Jesus acting on behalf of anyone and or everyone. He preached much less on "converting sinners" than he did on railing against the economic oppression of his day and the divide between the have and the have nots going so far as to say, before the rich young man could get to heaven that he had to sell all he had and give it to the poor.

 

Faith was always a prerequisite of Jesus' healing. As LBBC said, Jesus performed no miracles in his own hometown for that very reason. More often than not, Jesus required a demonstration of faith before healing--"Stretch out your hand...take up your mat & walk...go wash in the pool of Siloam."

 

Jesus' primary purpose for coming was not to alleviate poverty. Jesus himself said that he had come to "seek and to save what was lost." Jesus WAS all about alleviating oppression--the oppression of sin.

 

And the deal with the rich young man was not that he was rich. It was that his wealth was the biggest barrier between himself & faith in Christ. NEVER did Jesus make it a requirement that rich people had to sell everything and give it to the poor. Zacchaeus said that he would give back to those he had stolen from (and then some). But he never said, "I'll give everything I have away."

 

The social gospel, which you & other well-meaning Christians push so hard, is important. Don't mistake me for some kind of hate-monger. But, as evidenced in the feeding of the 5,000, Jesus' mission was not about alleviating poverty. If you remember, the crowd Jesus fed came back for more food, and he refused to give it to them. Why? Because he wasn't a bread messiah. He was here to bring salvation from sin.

 

Does Jesus love & identify with the poor? Absolutely. But he has commissioned his own to care for them (which the 1st century church did quite well). Never, EVER does God, His Son, or His word call on the government to be the agents of alleviating poverty in this world.

 

Does that mean the government shouldn't play a role? No. But they are to be the final option; not the first.

Ok thanks. I just didn't know which thing you were talking about.

 

And it would be great for churches and organizations to provide things like that, but in some areas it would be rough for a church to provide enough. I would also argue that if it was going to happen from God, that the churches around the US would already be doing it. Food stamps are necesary today, IMO, there is no reason for anyone in America, especially a child to go hungry.

 

I would counter and say there is no reason in America for a church NOT providing meals for the community except for their own stubborness.

 

One of my railing points in my local community is that several churches have Wednesday night meals and Bible studies. Why?

 

Why can't one have Monday night meals, one have Tuesday night meals and so on and so on.

 

Every night of the week a church would be providing a hot meal for the community.

 

There is a church that has a free and very reduced food store. Two churches have places people can pick up clothing, winter coats, shoes, etc, etc.

 

This should be done more and in greater quantity and people would know Christ through us as the Bible says they should.

Faith was always a prerequisite of Jesus' healing. As LBBC said, Jesus performed no miracles in his own hometown for that very reason. More often than not, Jesus required a demonstration of faith before healing--"Stretch out your hand...take up your mat & walk...go wash in the pool of Siloam."

 

Jesus' primary purpose for coming was not to alleviate poverty. Jesus himself said that he had come to "seek and to save what was lost." Jesus WAS all about alleviating oppression--the oppression of sin.

 

And the deal with the rich young man was not that he was rich. It was that his wealth was the biggest barrier between himself & faith in Christ. NEVER did Jesus make it a requirement that rich people had to sell everything and give it to the poor. Zacchaeus said that he would give back to those he had stolen from (and them some). But he never said, "I'll give everything I have away."

 

The social gospel, which you & other well-meaning Christians push so hard, is important. Don't mistake me for some kind of hate-monger. But, as evidenced in the feeding of the 5,000, Jesus' mission was not about alleviating poverty. If you remember, the crowd Jesus fed came back for more food, and he refused to give it to them. Why? Because he wasn't a bread messiah. He was here to bring salvation from sin.

 

Does Jesus love & identify with the poor? Absolutely. But he has commissioned his own to care for them (which the 1st century church did quite well). Never, EVER does God, His Son, or His word call on the government to be the agents of alleviating poverty in this world.

 

Does that mean the government shouldn't play a role? No. But they are to be the final option; not the first.

 

Very wonderfully said.:thumb: