Isn't it ironic that the person of the first 6 letters of Christian believed in a fiery hell but today some Christians don't.

 

 

You can't even begin to say what Christ believed in regards to a fiery hell that burns people forever. First and foremost the new testament, especially the gospels were written anywhere from 40 - 60 years after the death of Christ, and probably not written by the stated author, but by someone who learned in that discipline.

 

We also know that oral stories were not meant to describe particular events for historical preservation, but that they were meant to pass along a truth or moral. The red letters in your Bible are not Jesus' words, they are what somebody said that somebody said that Jesus said. There was not a scribe walking around with Jesus and the writers of the gospel to record His words. The sermons on the mount are different - Matthew says "blessed are the poor" - Luke (I think) says "blessed are the poor in spirit" - two distinctly different groups of people - but the the text then fits with the audience that is being addressed.

 

Jewish tradition does not speak of a fiery hell and when Jesus talks of it, he even talks of preaching to those who were there. If they were going to burn for eternity why would he preach to them.

 

There are thousands of Biblica scholars, many trained at the famed baptist seminary in Kentucky who do not believe in a physical hell. Please do some reading on the topic from some renowned theologians. My father-in-law is in for Christmas - a former professor of Preaching at Southern Baptist theological seminary, I will ask him for some names regarding the nature of hell.

My belief is that God is also just, and in order for Him to be just there must be a punishment for the wicked. .

 

Let's go with this logic for the sake of argument. Riddle me this. Are the "wicked' the only humans punished? I do not believe in God, yet I am far from "evil." Ghandi was one of the greatest men that has lived on our planet. He was also a Hindu. Because he never chose to be saved through Jesus Christ and to worship a Christian God - will said Christian God punish him to an eternity of fire?

 

And if so, where is the justice in that? Where, cch, is the justice in allowing good people to be tortured for eternity because they do not agree to follow a God who they may see as unjust?

 

He is All Merciful because, simply, I know no person on earth who deserves eternal salvation- everyone sins. His Mercy saves us. Also, He is All Merciful because anyone, Hitler, Stalin, or any of the above, can still be saved if they repent, no matter how horrible their crimes.

 

I agree. No one is good enough to deserve enternal salvation. By the same logic though, is anyone deserving of eternal torture?

And if you want to use Hitler as an excuse that someone was evil enough to deserve the eternal torture, and I would probably agree with that excuse, then common logic would tell us his evil had to have an equal opposite. Ghandi, Mother Theresa, etc, perhaps?

You can't see, hear, feel, touch, taste or smell the love of a child for their parent. I guess you would say it doesn't exist.

 

Love is an emotion. You can feel it.

 

 

You can't see, hear, feel, touch, taste or smell the joy that a UK fan has when KY wins the national championship. I guess you would say it doesn't exist.

 

Joy is an emotion. You can feel it.

 

You can also SEE Kentucky win a championship, and know first hand were these particular warm, fuzzies are coming from.

 

 

You can't see, hear, feel, touch, taste or smell the theory of the Big Bang or evolution. I guess you would say they don't exist.

 

 

You CAN see evolution. I wish they hadn't turned on Orton though.

I was reading a sermon that indicated that Scripture shows that Hell was created for Satan and the angels that followed him for the attempted overthrow of Heaven. Those humans that choose to reject God will also get the punishment that was reserved for Satan upon his banishment from Heaven.

 

Do you honestly have no problem that the "all loving" God could do such a thing? Again, I hardly claim to be "all loving" yet, I would not want my worst enemy to be burned - far much less for eternity.

 

As far as the free will argument, God absolutely could have create complete mindless robots of us to blindly follow Him. He could have made each of us to believe in Him, including FrontFan, without question. But that would have been a hollow Love for Him. Instead he desires the Love for Him that is given.

 

Again, it is not HIS choice for HIS creation to burn. Left to his choice, Adam and Eve would still be in the Garden of Eden.

 

God's hands are tied on this issue? Get real. The all powerful God is so stubborn that he couldn't find it to forgive Adam and Eve? Furthermore, why even have the tree there or allow the serpent to do what it did?

 

There is absolutely no logic in that whatsoever. God creates humans. God is all knowing so he should know already what was going to happen, why bother creating them?

 

But they and us choose to either Love and Follow Him or reject Him. It is our choice not his.

 

Again, shouldn't he have known this would happen when he created us individually? Was he setting us up to fail?

 

When you punished your children growing up, was it your fault or theirs that they got a punishment?

 

Spare us. You are going to attempt to compare a mom giving a toddler time out to God condeming someone who doesnt agree with him to an ETERNITY of fire and torture??

You are exactly right that he won't. That is why Jesus Christ came to this Earth 2000 years ago. To prevent that.

 

No. We've been through this already. Jesus died so that we could have a way out. It's not a guarantee. We can still go to hell. He still allows us to go.

 

Are you suggesting that God should make us mindless zombies to follow him so that people don't reject him?

 

Cause the ONLY WAY TO BURN FOR ETERNITY, is to reject God. That's it. It's your decision. It's my decision. It is not God's decision. He made his decision by sending Christ. The onus is now 100% on your and me and no one else.

 

He doesn't want a single soul to burn for eternity. You are 100% right and preaching the gospel message with that statement. He loves you so much, he gave His life for you.

 

 

Not at all. Free will is a good thing. My problem is that complete unjust punishment for rejecting him.

 

 

And taught me to do the same. If it came down to you and me and only one is to survive, I am taught to sacrifice myself. Why?

 

Beats me.

 

I would suggest we party it up.:dancingpa

 

Not because of some noble message. But because my soul is set in Heaven and it appears yours is not. If I die, I go with God for all eternity. Based on what you say, you don't. So, I should sacrifice myself, so that you have more time on this planet to maybe change your mind.

 

That is how much he wants no soul to burn in eternity. He wants me to give up my life so that you have more time on this planet to come to a different decision.

 

Sounds a little too suicide bomber for me.

 

Instead of costing yet more lives why does he not just say "Hey! I'm up here!"

Instead of costing yet more lives why does he not just say "Hey! I'm up here!"

 

Because then it wouldn't require faith to believe in Him.

Because then it wouldn't require faith to believe in Him.

 

WHAT IS THE POINT?!!?

 

I go back to this question:

 

Is God so stubborn that he's just going to make us sweat it out, with the consequence of an enternal torment?

what do you believe will happen to you when you die?

Let's go with this logic for the sake of argument. Riddle me this. Are the "wicked' the only humans punished? I do not believe in God, yet I am far from "evil." Ghandi was one of the greatest men that has lived on our planet. He was also a Hindu. Because he never chose to be saved through Jesus Christ and to worship a Christian God - will said Christian God punish him to an eternity of fire?

 

And if so, where is the justice in that? Where, cch, is the justice in allowing good people to be tortured for eternity because they do not agree to follow a God who they may see as unjust?

 

 

 

I agree. No one is good enough to deserve enternal salvation. By the same logic though, is anyone deserving of eternal torture?

And if you want to use Hitler as an excuse that someone was evil enough to deserve the eternal torture, and I would probably agree with that excuse, then common logic would tell us his evil had to have an equal opposite. Ghandi, Mother Theresa, etc, perhaps?

 

Who said that Ghandi or any Hindu can't get to heaven? I feel like, once again, you are putting words in my mouth. I believe Christianity (specifically Catholicism) is the path that the savior of the world created to get to heaven (and without it no one would get to heaven) but God wouldn't send a good person to hell- unless they consistently rejected God or Jesus and His message. A peasant farmer in China who has never heard of Jesus won't be condemned for not being Christian.

 

Also I am not sure what you mean about an equal opposite or what you are trying to prove there- explain more.

You can't even begin to say what Christ believed in regards to a fiery hell that burns people forever. First and foremost the new testament, especially the gospels were written anywhere from 40 - 60 years after the death of Christ, and probably not written by the stated author, but by someone who learned in that discipline.

 

We also know that oral stories were not meant to describe particular events for historical preservation, but that they were meant to pass along a truth or moral. The red letters in your Bible are not Jesus' words, they are what somebody said that somebody said that Jesus said. There was not a scribe walking around with Jesus and the writers of the gospel to record His words. The sermons on the mount are different - Matthew says "blessed are the poor" - Luke (I think) says "blessed are the poor in spirit" - two distinctly different groups of people - but the the text then fits with the audience that is being addressed.

 

Jewish tradition does not speak of a fiery hell and when Jesus talks of it, he even talks of preaching to those who were there. If they were going to burn for eternity why would he preach to them.

 

There are thousands of Biblica scholars, many trained at the famed baptist seminary in Kentucky who do not believe in a physical hell. Please do some reading on the topic from some renowned theologians. My father-in-law is in for Christmas - a former professor of Preaching at Southern Baptist theological seminary, I will ask him for some names regarding the nature of hell.

 

And you can?

 

From what you type here, what you profess to believe is YOUR VERSION. You have picked out the verses of the Bible that you think are warm and cuddly and fits what you WANT to believe while dismissing the parts that you don't agree with.

 

I can't do that. I either take the full message or none of it. I don't take the full message and it does become LBBC's version of Christianity and now you guys have full right to rip me on it.

 

But, instead, I take the Bible, or try to take the Bible, I am still learning and don't know it 100% front cover to back cover, so am learning on issues:thumb:, for it's entirety.

 

Some parts, I have problem with and am trying to understand.

Some parts I don't agree with, but I ain't God either.

 

Honest question Ace, what qualifications do you use to determine which part of the Bible you will agree with and which part you won't?

Let's go with this logic for the sake of argument. Riddle me this. Are the "wicked' the only humans punished? I do not believe in God, yet I am far from "evil." Ghandi was one of the greatest men that has lived on our planet. He was also a Hindu. Because he never chose to be saved through Jesus Christ and to worship a Christian God - will said Christian God punish him to an eternity of fire?

 

And if so, where is the justice in that? Where, cch, is the justice in allowing good people to be tortured for eternity because they do not agree to follow a God who they may see as unjust?

 

 

 

I agree. No one is good enough to deserve enternal salvation. By the same logic though, is anyone deserving of eternal torture?

And if you want to use Hitler as an excuse that someone was evil enough to deserve the eternal torture, and I would probably agree with that excuse, then common logic would tell us his evil had to have an equal opposite. Ghandi, Mother Theresa, etc, perhaps?

 

In what you and Ace are promoting though, evil is NEVER punished. Is that justice?

Love is an emotion. You can feel it.

 

 

 

 

Joy is an emotion. You can feel it.

 

You can also SEE Kentucky win a championship, and know first hand were these particular warm, fuzzies are coming from.

 

 

 

 

 

You CAN see evolution. I wish they hadn't turned on Orton though.

 

 

I thought you were using feel as a physically touch as you have been hard on the proving aspect and you cannot prove emotions. Ironic that you claim something here is that is not provable, love/joy being an emotion, how do you test and prove it?

 

 

 

Can't stand Orton so he deserves all he gets. Nice one, though.:thumb:

No. We've been through this already. Jesus died so that we could have a way out. It's not a guarantee. We can still go to hell. He still allows us to go.

 

 

 

Not at all. Free will is a good thing. My problem is that complete unjust punishment for rejecting him.

 

 

 

 

Beats me.

 

I would suggest we party it up.:dancingpa

 

 

 

Sounds a little too suicide bomber for me.

 

Instead of costing yet more lives why does he not just say "Hey! I'm up here!"

 

That first mentality is like saying I get a speeding ticket tonight and then one tomorrow, it is the policeman's fault for still allowing me to drive tomorrow.

 

It honestly sounds like you are similar to teenagers I teach. You want free reign to do whatever you want with no consequences to your actions at all.

 

And he is saying "Hey! I'm up here!" Heck, he has been saying it directly TO YOU through all these posts that have been on BGP showing you that God does exist.

 

He sure is working hard on BGP here this Christmas break trying to get one person's attention. YOURS!

I was reading a sermon that indicated that Scripture shows that Hell was created for Satan and the angels that followed him for the attempted overthrow of Heaven. Those humans that choose to reject God will also get the punishment that was reserved for Satan upon his banishment from Heaven.

 

As far as the free will argument, God absolutely could have create complete mindless robots of us to blindly follow Him. He could have made each of us to believe in Him, including FrontFan, without question. But that would have been a hollow Love for Him. Instead he desires the Love for Him that is given.

 

Again, it is not HIS choice for HIS creation to burn. Left to his choice, Adam and Eve would still be in the Garden of Eden.

 

But they and us choose to either Love and Follow Him or reject Him. It is our choice not his.

 

When you punished your children growing up, was it your fault or theirs that they got a punishment?

If God is All knowing, then He has to know in advance what the choice of the individual will be. He knows well in advance what the person will do. He's All Knowing! It's not an issue of "robots". If it is, then He knows what the robot's decision will be because He is All Knowing. Even if the individual chooses poorly, as Hitler did, an all Knowing God knew in advance of that decision. I'm totally confused by this. I want to believe, I really do. I am so mixed up, confused, about the 'faith' and 'proof' debate. Faith is really 'blind faith'. You must believe what you have been taught and what you have read is the way it is. Proof has to be thrown out, and replaced by faith.

what do you believe will happen to you when you die?

 

Good question.

 

My body will probably be cremated. The energy in my body, because it can not be created or destroyed, will continue here on Earth is some form.

 

To quote Jack Nicholson's character Edward Long in the The Bucket List, "We live, we die, and the wheels on the bus go round and round."