Let's not get tied up in the gay rights issue. It's not the sole issue between Church and State. I think the much bigger issue is that our founding fathers didn't envision a nation made up of religions outside of the Judeo-Christian influences.

 

Most of the "Founding Fathers," including Jefferson, Franklin, Washington, John Adams, Madison, Monroe, and Hamilton, were all "deists."

 

Deism is not Christianity. It was the near-universal belief of educated people in Western Europe and America during the "Enlightenment," and posited a creator deity of great wisdom and beneficence, who created the world perfect and therefore does not need to interfere with its workings.

 

Therefore, for good intellectual reasons, these people did not believe in the miracle mongering of Christianity. Adams and Tom Paine were positively hostile; the others were more or less friendly to Christianity.

 

The raison d'etre for deism--the need to explain the apparent order of the universe--went away when Darwin showed how an illusion of design can come about by completely natural (non-mindful) means. As a result deism is much less common nowadays and people have forgotten how dominant it was.

Washington was an Episcopalian.

John Adams was a Unitarian.

Jefferson was raised an Episcopalian, but later became a Deist.

Madison and Monroe both attended Episcopal church while president, but an argument could be made that they also embraced Deism.

John Qunicy Adams, like his father, was Episcopalian.

 

Alexander Hamilton had this to say:

"Such a wife as I want... must be young, handsome I lay most stress upon a good shape, sensible a little learning will do, well-bread, chaste, and tender. As to religion, a moderate stock will satisfy me. She must believe in God and hate a saint."

 

Deism is simply "God as I want him to be." It's a central tenet of Humanism.

Washington was an Episcopalian.

John Adams was a Unitarian.

Jefferson was raised an Episcopalian, but later became a Deist.

Madison and Monroe both attended Episcopal church while president, but an argument could be made that they also embraced Deism.

John Qunicy Adams, like his father, was Episcopalian.

 

Alexander Hamilton had this to say:

"Such a wife as I want... must be young, handsome I lay most stress upon a good shape, sensible a little learning will do, well-bread, chaste, and tender. As to religion, a moderate stock will satisfy me. She must believe in God and hate a saint."

 

Deism is simply "God as I want him to be." It's a central tenet of Humanism.

 

While Washington was raised Episcopalian and during his presidency, attended Episcopalian church - he did not take communion and never considered himself communicant. His writings often reflected his deist view points - though he never verbally claimed himself one.

 

 

Adams was a devout Unitarian - but he strongly rejected "Christian" core beliefs such as The Trinity.

 

 

 

Curiously, the founders who were Christians according to you, didn't mention Jesus once in any of the founding documents. Odd behavior for a group bent on founding a Christian nation.

 

I am not saying that Christianity had nothing to do with the founding of this country - but I don't agree (and I think its fairly evident) that our Founding Fathers did not intend this nation to be a "Christian" nation as you have suggested.

I am not saying that Christianity had nothing to do with the founding of this country - but I don't agree (and I think its fairly evident) that our Founding Fathers did not intend this nation to be a "Christian" nation as you have suggested.

My point is not that they were Christian, but that they didn't envision a nation embracing Eastern religions.

Deism is simply "God as I want him to be." It's a central tenet of Humanism.

 

It's more complicated than that, of course ...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

 

Deists typically reject supernatural events (prophecy, miracles) and tend to assert that God does not interfere with human life and the laws of the universe. What organized religions see as divine revelation and holy books, most deists see as interpretations made by other humans, rather than as authoritative sources.

 

Deism became prominent in Great Britain, France, and the United States in the 17th and 18th centuries, mostly among those raised as Christians who found they could not believe in either a triune God, the divinity of Jesus, miracles, or the inerrancy of scriptures, but who did believe in one God. Initially it did not form any congregations, but in time deism led to the development of other religious groups, particularly Unitarianism. It continues to this day in the form of Classical Deism and Modern Deism.

My point is not that they were Christian, but that they didn't envision a nation embracing Eastern religions.

 

Well that's not what you said. You said the founding fathers did not envision a country based on religions outside of the Judeo-Christian faith.

The founding fathers had no intention of denying Christianity in the US. Whether they forsaw the day that non-Christian religious beliefs would be the subject of defense is irrelevant. The point of separation of church and state was that a theocracy would be avoided. The founding fathers were well aware of the reasons many sought America as their new home, and that was religious persecution by theocratical governments.

The founding fathers had no intention of denying Christianity in the US. Whether they forsaw the day that non-Christian religious beliefs would be the subject of defense is irrelevant. The point of separation of church and state was that a theocracy would be avoided. The founding fathers were well aware of the reasons many sought America as their new home, and that was religious persecution by theocratical governments.

 

 

Uh oh, Mother Superior Rockmom has returned!! :scared:

 

I am not saying that Christianity had nothing to do with the founding of this country - but I don't agree (and I think its fairly evident) that our Founding Fathers did not intend this nation to be a "Christian" nation as you have suggested.

 

I think a better way to word that is that "some" of the Founding Fathers did not intend this nation to be a nation ruled by the Christian religion.

 

I think most, if not almost all, wished for Christianity to be the faith practiced in this country and helped guide this country.

 

I think some, might have gone as far to want a Christian ruler.

 

But to say OUR FOUNDING FATHERS indicates that all were of the same mindset and looking at politicians, I found it hard to believe that all were in 100% agreement on the issue.

 

Especially in light that some of the signatures on that paper were very strong Christians and guided by their faith.

The founding fathers had no intention of denying Christianity in the US. Whether they forsaw the day that non-Christian religious beliefs would be the subject of defense is irrelevant. The point of separation of church and state was that a theocracy would be avoided. The founding fathers were well aware of the reasons many sought America as their new home, and that was religious persecution by theocratical governments.

 

I BIG glad to hear from you RM. Pray that all is going better with the health of your family.

Uh oh, Mother Superior Rockmom has returned!! :scared:

 

 

Hey...this has nothing to do with Catholicism. This has to do with the reasons the founding fathers chose to stipulate the separation of church and state. It really had nothing to do with religion, but everything to do with the protection of the new country's citizens against persecution by the government based upon religious reasons (ie-Salem witch trials)

Hey...this has nothing to do with Catholicism. This has to do with the reasons the founding fathers chose to stipulate the separation of church and state. It really had nothing to do with religion, but everything to do with the protection of the new country's citizens against persecution by the government based upon religious reasons (ie-Salem witch trials)

 

 

Well since Catholicism is one branch of Christianity I think it has something to do with it.

Well since Catholicism is one branch of Christianity I think it has something to do with it.

 

 

I'm not here to convert anyone...

 

Just popped in to clear up the reasons for the separation of church and state proviso. It's really quite simple, and not complicated at all. I thought I could handle that.

I BIG glad to hear from you RM. Pray that all is going better with the health of your family.

 

 

Thank you, LBBC....:thumb:

I'm not here to convert anyone...

 

Just popped in to clear up the reasons for the separation of church and state proviso. It's really quite simple, and not complicated at all. I thought I could handle that.

 

 

Well if you need an Inquisitor for anything 'round these parts just let me know.