Explain. Christianity is a church, a group of people, based on a book written by man for man. You have no connection to a God other than talking to yourself or maybe some warm fuzzy feelings. How do you seperate Christianity from humans?

 

People are not perfect beings. Agree?

 

When imperfect beings try to run something, there are going to be things not done perfectly. There are going to be errors in judgement and decisions.

They are going to stray from the true Scripture teaching.

 

Sometimes they do it intently because they care more for their evil/lustful desires rather than for what the Scripture actually says. I believe the way the Scripture is twisted to justify slavery and the racial hating of other races is an example of this.

 

Sometimes they do it indirectly by losing focus of what their task at hand is. I do that when I put my job, my hobbies, my worldly life in front of my faith and my family.

 

I know that I am supposed to put others in front of my desires. I don't always do that. But that is not the Scriptures fault. That is not God's fault. That is LBBC's fault for not living out Scripture as I should do.

 

Thankfully, God is merciful and realizes that I am going to screw up and is not going to hold me to a perfect standard.

People are not perfect beings. Agree?

 

When imperfect beings try to run something, there are going to be things not done perfectly. There are going to be errors in judgement and decisions.

They are going to stray from the true Scripture teaching.

 

Sometimes they do it intently because they care more for their evil/lustful desires rather than for what the Scripture actually says. I believe the way the Scripture is twisted to justify slavery and the racial hating of other races is an example of this.

 

Sometimes they do it indirectly by losing focus of what their task at hand is. I do that when I put my job, my hobbies, my worldly life in front of my faith and my family.

 

I know that I am supposed to put others in front of my desires. I don't always do that. But that is not the Scriptures fault. That is not God's fault. That is LBBC's fault for not living out Scripture as I should do.

 

Thankfully, God is merciful and realizes that I am going to screw up and is not going to hold me to a perfect standard.

 

 

I agree. The problem is that you stated that "You might find instances of humans being fallible, but you won't find instances of Christianity based on the Bible being fallible."

 

My point is that "Christianity" is human. You can not seperate the two. You can't say humans are faillible while saying Christianity is not - because Christianity is humans. It is the members that make up its churces, it is the humans that wrote its text, and (atleast in Catholisim) its the hiearchy of leadership.

I agree. The problem is that you stated that "You might find instances of humans being fallible, but you won't find instances of Christianity based on the Bible being fallible."

 

My point is that "Christianity" is human. You can not seperate the two. You can't say humans are faillible while saying Christianity is not - because Christianity is humans. It is the members that make up its churces, it is the humans that wrote its text, and (atleast in Catholisim) its the hiearchy of leadership.

 

Presently, I don't believe are politicians are doing a good job in representing and running this country.

 

Does this mean that democracy is failing?

 

Or does it mean that those serving IN DEMOCRACY at this point is failing?

 

Another analogy. Marriages end in divorce at an alarming rate in this country. Is that because the institute of marriage is a failure or because the people going into marriages today are simply not as committed to making them work?

 

Christianity is not humans. It is the faith in Jesus Christ. And that faith has never let me down. Christians have. But Jesus has not.

 

I may not always get MY way. Jesus may do things different than I would have. But later on, I found out his way was better than my way.

Presently, I don't believe are politicians are doing a good job in representing and running this country.

 

Does this mean that democracy is failing?

 

Or does it mean that those serving IN DEMOCRACY at this point is failing?

 

Another analogy. Marriages end in divorce at an alarming rate in this country. Is that because the institute of marriage is a failure or because the people going into marriages today are simply not as committed to making them work?

 

Christianity is not humans. It is the faith in Jesus Christ. And that faith has never let me down. Christians have. But Jesus has not.

 

I may not always get MY way. Jesus may do things different than I would have. But later on, I found out his way was better than my way.

 

You see - that is a complete cop out. The fact is that Christianity IS Humans. The "faith" in Jesus Christ is a human emotion; a human feeling. Faith may have not let you down (and I highly doubt that is 100% honest) but it has let down a lot of other people. "I have faith that Christ will cure me of my cancer." "I have faith that Christ will lead me to a good career." "I have faith that Christ will be coming back soon. (Said any number of times over the last 2 Millinium)"

 

"Faith" is nothing more than wishful thinking and a 24/7, 365 excuse to be able to side step the question of "Where's the proof?" Faith is not an argument, it's an excuse.

You see - that is a complete cop out. The fact is that Christianity IS Humans. The "faith" in Jesus Christ is a human emotion; a human feeling. Faith may have not let you down (and I highly doubt that is 100% honest) but it has let down a lot of other people. "I have faith that Christ will cure me of my cancer." "I have faith that Christ will lead me to a good career." "I have faith that Christ will be coming back soon. (Said any number of times over the last 2 Millinium)"

 

"Faith" is nothing more than wishful thinking and a 24/7, 365 excuse to be able to side step the question of "Where's the proof?" Faith is not an argument, it's an excuse.

Faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

Faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

 

Yeah? Explain to me how that definition differs from:

 

"Faith" is nothing more than wishful thinking and a 24/7, 365 excuse to be able to side step the question of "Where's the proof?" Faith is not an argument, it's an excuse.

Yeah? Explain to me how that definition differs from:

Do you not have faith in anything? If not, that's really sad.

Do you not have faith in anything? If not, that's really sad.

 

Depends on what "faith" you are referring to. For example, if you mean:

 

confidence or trust in a person or thing

 

Then yes. I have faith that when I see my doctor, he will give me good care. I have faith that my parents will get me a great Christmas gift this year. I have faith that Billy G. will be successful at UK.

 

I can have faith in these things - because they have factual grounding. I have been to my doctor and know that I can expect to get good service. My parents always get great Christmas gifts - so I can expect the same this year. Billy G has been successful everywhere he has been - so I can have faith he will do the same in Lexington.

 

 

If, by "faith" you mean,

 

belief that is not based on proof

 

Then absolutely not.

You see - that is a complete cop out. The fact is that Christianity IS Humans. The "faith" in Jesus Christ is a human emotion; a human feeling. Faith may have not let you down (and I highly doubt that is 100% honest) but it has let down a lot of other people. "I have faith that Christ will cure me of my cancer." "I have faith that Christ will lead me to a good career." "I have faith that Christ will be coming back soon. (Said any number of times over the last 2 Millinium)"

 

"Faith" is nothing more than wishful thinking and a 24/7, 365 excuse to be able to side step the question of "Where's the proof?" Faith is not an argument, it's an excuse.

 

If faith was provable then it wouldn't really be faith.

 

How come those of us (the faithful) are concerned about you (because it is what we believe), while you mock us and tell us the way we live our lives is an excuse?

Belief in the provable may be the ultimate cop-out.

 

If I can't see, hear, feel, touch, taste or smell it, it doesn't exist.

 

How easy is that.

 

I would a whole lot rather have faith in God while I'm alive and find out I'm wrong when I die then to deny Him and find out at death that I was in error.

 

And doesn't it get a bit old when avowed atheists like Christopher Hitchings look down their noses at those of us who believe and treat us like we have some sort of delusion while those like them that take the easy way out declare their intellectual superiority over us?

If I'm wrong in what I believe, no big deal; I won't no the difference.

 

If Christopher Hitchings is wrong.....:fire:

Belief in the provable may be the ultimate cop-out.

 

If I can't see, hear, feel, touch, taste or smell it, it doesn't exist.

 

How easy is that.

 

I would a whole lot rather have faith in God while I'm alive and find out I'm wrong when I die then to deny Him and find out at death that I was in error.

 

And doesn't it get a bit old when avowed atheists like Christopher Hitchings look down their noses at those of us who believe and treat us like we have some sort of delusion while those like them that take the easy way out declare their intellectual superiority over us?

Yes - it does get very old and I enjoy Hitchens' writing. Physicists have been working on the Unified Field theory since Einstein first coined the phrase and the theory may never reached the "settled science" stage. Yet, a many human beings are so certain that God does not exist despite any evidence to support that belief that they declare themselves to be atheists and lay claim to the intellectual high ground.

 

I understand how humans can hold deep seated reservations about religion, but the arrogance required on behalf of people like Hitchens to declare as a matter of fact that God does not exist boggles the mind. In a twisted sort of way, it takes much more faith to believe that God does not exist because the downside of being wrong far outweighs any possible upside. Atheists are betting far more than their lives that they are correct - they are gambling that they have no souls.

If faith was provable then it wouldn't really be faith.

 

We have more than established a working definition of the word "faith"...

 

How come those of us (the faithful) are concerned about you (because it is what we believe), while you mock us and tell us the way we live our lives is an excuse?

 

I respect your concern - and please know that equal I have equal concern for you.

Belief in the provable may be the ultimate cop-out.

 

Fair enough. At least, I have factual, empirical, and logical reasoning behind my cop-out.

 

If I can't see, hear, feel, touch, taste or smell it, it doesn't exist.

 

How easy is that.

 

 

Extremely easy. That's why it puzzles me that more people don't do it.

 

I would a whole lot rather have faith in God while I'm alive and find out I'm wrong when I die then to deny Him and find out at death that I was in error.

 

So religion to you is a fire escape? Do you follow the Chrisitian path because you truly believe that God is all loving or do you follow it so that he'll spare you some flames?

 

That is one of the biggest problems I have with Christianity. People! An All Loving Being would not allow you to burn for eternity!

 

And doesn't it get a bit old when avowed atheists like Christopher Hitchings look down their noses at those of us who believe and treat us like we have some sort of delusion while those like them that take the easy way out declare their intellectual superiority over us?

 

It also gets old with devout Christians such as Pat Robertson and the late, not great Jerry Falwell use the cover of Christianity to spew hatred and attempt to oppress Americans.

On your first paragraph has there been non-religious governments that have done horrible things, too? Rome, Genghis Khan? If so, horrible governments have one thing in common and it ain't religion. It is fallible and sometimes evil men are part of them.

 

On the bolded, are you saying than that non-religious charities are not flawed and are able to ONLY do good? I found it highly offensive your assumption that if it is a Christian organization, it is going to be messed up.

 

Rome had an official religion and Kahn believed like many other ancient conquerors that he was a god. Secular governments can do terrible things. The USA nearly exterminated an entire race (Native Americans) and supported slavery. But b/c we don't have a government rooted in religious dogma, we can change it. We have the freedom to interpret and change laws that are unjust. By rooting in religion you can't do that b/c you are saying God is fallible.

 

I have no problem with the private sector giving to religious charities, I do it. But, I don't want my tax dollars going to religious charities b/c it makes it look like the government is endorsing that particular religion. Most religious charities also witness to their patrons, and my tax dollars aren't meant to save souls. I give to my church missions offerings for that.