What Jesus said aboout praying has bothered me for a long time concerning my prayer life and when we are asked to pray at Church. I believe there is even a thread about my concern somewhere on here.

I was addressing the government aspect not what Jesus required.

 

But we should always be more concerned with what Jesus said than what the government said, right?

I guess this is relevant...

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071223/ap_po/huckabee

Absolutely, I agree with it. That poster is a scholar and a gentlemen.

 

Religion has absolutely no place in politics. Our country is one of the most diverse in the world. We have thousands upon thousands of citizens who worship religions other than Christianity. We have Muslims, Hindus, Daoists, Shintos, Satanists, Wiccans, Kemets, and Athiests and Agnostics.

 

Why should any religion have the right to mandate politics based on a BOOK. A BOOK that was written by men, not a mythical sky fairy.

 

Politics and government should be based purely on common sense and logical rationale not based on an article of faith that has been proved failable over and over again.

 

You just missed the entire point of my post. I asked if morality and God should be somewhat involved, not a particular religion (such as Christianity).

It's fine that politicians have religious beliefs or don't. I firmly believe that history has shown that governance mixed with religion is dangerous and should be separated. Iquisitions, Crusades, and modern Islamic Terrorism is all based on a mixture of religion and the state and no good comes of it.

 

I don't want my tax dollars to go to any religious charity, or to support any particular religious ideal like school-led prayer.

 

I'm a firm Christian, but I know that absolutely no good can come of over-mixing of religion and politics, because we are too flawed to do so.

 

Morality, yes you can use it in government. But realize that morality doesn't always = faith. I know atheists who are more moral than many Christians. And realize that your morality doesn't = someone else's

Why do we mandate politics based on a DOCUMENT that was written by men over 200 years ago?

 

See that is all people like to do in defense of religion. Dip and dive, dodge and duck. You cant answer questions posed to you - so you have to return a question yourself.

 

Yet again - I'll show you how to answer one. There is a fundamental difference between The Bible and The Constitution. 1) The Constitution was intended to be a mandate for politics. 2) We can change the Constitution if we not agree with it.

 

Sense it was passed, many ammendments have been placed on the Constitution...but we dare not do it to the bible for we are not to change the word of God. Oh, but reinterpreting it countless times into countless different texts is ok - I forgot.

 

 

 

And give me one instance of Christianity being proved failable (not sure that is the correct spelling) over and over again? You won't be able to.

 

An excellent one to begin with would be the obvious contradiction that results when Exodus 12:40 is compared to the Aaronic genealogy found in Exodus 6:16-20. The first passage declares that the Israelites, who were beginning their famous journey to the promised land, had dwelt in Egypt for 430 years. According to the genealogy in Exodus 6, however, the Israelite sojourn in Egypt could have lasted no more than 352 years and probably even considerably less than that.

 

Let's look at a few biblical errors, why dont we? Just for kicks and giggles.

 

God good to all, or just a few?

 

An All Merciful God?

PSA 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.

JER 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

 

 

Who is the father of Joseph?

MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus,who is called Christ.

LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.

 

How satisfied with creation was he?

#1: God says "it was good" after each of his labors, and rests on the seventh day, evidently very satisfied.

#2: God has to fix up his creation as he goes, and he would certainly not be very satisfied with the disobedience of that primordial couple. (funny thing that an omniscient god would forget things)

 

Should I be Righteous, or not?

Ps.92:12: "The righteous shall flourish like the palm tree."

Isa.57:1: "The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart."

 

 

You might find instances of humans being fallible, but you won't find instances of Christianity based on the Bible being fallible.

 

Explain. Christianity is a church, a group of people, based on a book written by man for man. You have no connection to a God other than talking to yourself or maybe some warm fuzzy feelings. How do you seperate Christianity from humans?

You just missed the entire point of my post. I asked if morality and God should be somewhat involved, not a particular religion (such as Christianity).

 

I did not miss the point of your post at all; but you based this thread off a post that I made in regards to the Christian God. A "God" or any article of faith has no place in politics. Period.

 

Morality is a different subject because one does not need religion to have morals. I am surprised how often that simple mistake is made.

I did not miss the point of your post at all; but you based this thread off a post that I made in regards to the Christian God. A "God" or any article of faith has no place in politics. Period.

 

Morality is a different subject because one does not need religion to have morals. I am surprised how often that simple mistake is made.

 

Who said you need a religion to have morals? I feel like you are putting words in my mouth. So you feel that morality should have an effect on government decisions (not Christian morality)- that the government should do the right thing? If there is no God, or any greater purpose, and if everything is based on logic and reason, then why should government care about doing the right thing?

In a public forum. And we all know how much importance Jesus placed on public prayer.

 

Owsley made the point that the government cannot prevent anyone from practicing a religion that he stated. I posted that they can limit the practicing of those religions.

Who said you need a religion to have morals? I feel like you are putting words in my mouth. So you feel that morality should have an effect on government decisions (not Christian morality)- that the government should do the right thing? If there is no God, or any greater purpose, and if everything is based on logic and reason, then why should government care about doing the right thing?

 

You're being way too defensive here. I was not saying that YOU personally said that you needed religion to have morals - but its a fair statement to say that a lot of people would think that.

 

One could gather though by the end of your post though,

If there is no God, or any greater purpose, and if everything is based on logic and reason, then why should government care about doing the right thing?

that you are in fact basically saying that morals are based on religion. By saying that the absence of a God may be reason to live without morals - you are saying pretty clearly that morals are grounded in religion. It is simply not the case.

 

I do not believe in a God or think that using the word God in vain will cause me to burn forever in a mythical place below the ground - but I have a great sense of right and wrong. I am not just talking laws either.

 

I do not need the fear of a God judging me to know that I should not lie, cheat, steal, or be dishonest.

 

To answer your question about why a government should care - the answer is quite simple - and I am sure you knew that when you asked the question. Humans, for the most part, are a compassionate, caring being. We have welfare policies, public education taxes, and government sponsored programs because it is simply the right thing to do. The Bible does not say pay taxes so that our citizens can be offered free education - but yet we choose to continue to pay these taxes because its the logical, rational, and right thing to do.

Let's look at this issue of morality and The Bible/Christianity a little further...

 

Can we even take the Bible as a book founded in morality? There are sections that make me wonder.

 

Allow me to share:

 

 

 

"...ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves. For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God. Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice; And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make they sons go a whoring after their gods. Thou shall make thee no molten gods."

 

Looking past the evident obsession with "whoring" - what do you think of the merits of such a "jealous" God? Quite the leader that we should model our political leadership from, correct?

It's fine that politicians have religious beliefs or don't. I firmly believe that history has shown that governance mixed with religion is dangerous and should be separated. Iquisitions, Crusades, and modern Islamic Terrorism is all based on a mixture of religion and the state and no good comes of it.

 

I don't want my tax dollars to go to any religious charity, or to support any particular religious ideal like school-led prayer.

 

I'm a firm Christian, but I know that absolutely no good can come of over-mixing of religion and politics, because we are too flawed to do so.

 

Morality, yes you can use it in government. But realize that morality doesn't always = faith. I know atheists who are more moral than many Christians. And realize that your morality doesn't = someone else's

 

 

On your first paragraph has there been non-religious governments that have done horrible things, too? Rome, Genghis Khan? If so, horrible governments have one thing in common and it ain't religion. It is fallible and sometimes evil men are part of them.

 

On the bolded, are you saying than that non-religious charities are not flawed and are able to ONLY do good? I found it highly offensive your assumption that if it is a Christian organization, it is going to be messed up.

See that is all people like to do in defense of religion. Dip and dive, dodge and duck. You cant answer questions posed to you - so you have to return a question yourself.

 

Yet again - I'll show you how to answer one. There is a fundamental difference between The Bible and The Constitution. 1) The Constitution was intended to be a mandate for politics. 2) We can change the Constitution if we not agree with it.

 

Sense it was passed, many ammendments have been placed on the Constitution...but we dare not do it to the bible for we are not to change the word of God. Oh, but reinterpreting it countless times into countless different texts is ok - I forgot.

 

 

I tried to reread the thread and see where I dipped and dove, dodged and ducked and didn't see it. Looking at the number of posts I have, it doesn't look like I dip or dive, dodge or duck many topics on BGP.

 

If you have something specific you wish to ask, please ask. Can't promise I can answer it cause I am not all-knowing like God.

 

How is reinterpreting the Bible into a new language an issue for you? I prefer to see if a Bible goes back to the original manuscripts and the original language and interprets it from there. Contrary to what seems to be your assumption, when I study Scripture, I look to use resources that looks at the original words used in the original manuscripts and tells me what those words are and the different meanings of those words that were used.

 

Now, if there is something wrong with that, then you cannot also believe any history of man at all.

 

I find it amusing that you believe we can change the Constitution in today's political forum. Try to drop change the 2nd amendment either way and see what happens.

On your first paragraph has there been non-religious governments that have done horrible things, too? Rome, Genghis Khan? If so, horrible governments have one thing in common and it ain't religion. It is fallible and sometimes evil men are part of them.

 

On the bolded, are you saying than that non-religious charities are not flawed and are able to ONLY do good? I found it highly offensive your assumption that if it is a Christian organization, it is going to be messed up.

 

 

Pay attention to what you bold, LBBC. Morehand was referring to the "over"mixing of religion and politics.

I tried to reread the thread and see where I dipped and dove, dodged and ducked and didn't see it. Looking at the number of posts I have, it doesn't look like I dip or dive, dodge or duck many topics on BGP.

 

If you have something specific you wish to ask, please ask. Can't promise I can answer it cause I am not all-knowing like God.

 

 

Having 20,000 posts and posting to everything addressed you does not necessarily mean you have answered anything, LBBC.

 

I still want you to answer my question on how you seperate humans and christianity?

 

How is reinterpreting the Bible into a new language an issue for you? I prefer to see if a Bible goes back to the original manuscripts and the original language and interprets it from there. Contrary to what seems to be your assumption, when I study Scripture, I look to use resources that looks at the original words used in the original manuscripts and tells me what those words are and the different meanings of those words that were used.

 

Now, if there is something wrong with that, then you cannot also believe any history of man at all.

 

It's not an issue at all to me. It is to a lot of people within your faith though. One has to wonder though, a book reinterpreted that much couldnt have stayed true to the original text. I am glad that you do a little research in your religious practices - though I doubt you are in the majority within your religion.

 

 

I find it amusing that you believe we can change the Constitution in today's political forum. Try to drop change the 2nd amendment either way and see what happens.

 

Because the NRA is one of the biggest, most resourced, and influential voting blocs in the country?

 

See the 18th and 21st ammendments before saying that the Constitution can not be changed.

 

Let's look at a few biblical errors, why dont we? Just for kicks and giggles.

 

God good to all, or just a few?

 

An All Merciful God?

PSA 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.

JER 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

 

 

Who is the father of Joseph?

MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus,who is called Christ.

LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.

 

How satisfied with creation was he?

#1: God says "it was good" after each of his labors, and rests on the seventh day, evidently very satisfied.

#2: God has to fix up his creation as he goes, and he would certainly not be very satisfied with the disobedience of that primordial couple. (funny thing that an omniscient god would forget things)

 

Should I be Righteous, or not?

Ps.92:12: "The righteous shall flourish like the palm tree."

Isa.57:1: "The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart."

 

 

 

 

Explain. Christianity is a church, a group of people, based on a book written by man for man. You have no connection to a God other than talking to yourself or maybe some warm fuzzy feelings. How do you seperate Christianity from humans?

I have stayed away from personal attacks on your ignorance, so please if you want to have a discussion with me, don't tell me what I do and do not have in a relationship with my God.

 

On the Scriptures you have cited, I will look at and consider.

 

God is a God of mercy of that there is no doubt. For, we screw up many times a day and we fall short of perfection that is needed for Heaven. So, his Son came out of Heaven to be the sacrifice for our screwups so that we can be in Heaven. That is definitely mercy to give where giving is not deserved.