Are they? There is a very good possibility that a number of them weren't believers and thus weren't saved and may have not had time to cry out to God. According to what most Christians believe, they are in hell now.

 

I'm not in a position to judge them so I don't know. But I go back to my first paragraph. If they were given an chance to know God and have a relationship with him then they are. Beyond that its not up to me. If they did stand before God, then they learned that life is very short and living a world full of sin and tragedy gives you no guarantees for and Earthly tomorrow. That should be a lesson for all of us.

 

But again, I'm not God and I don't judge people or decipher where they went. That is up to God and God alone.

Well they learned life is temporary. They leanred that God is soveirgn and important and that the World can snatch them into the afterlife at a moments notice because Man allowed sin to come inton the world. They may have also learned how awesome heaven is compared to Earth. They be walking streets of Gold, sitting at the throne of God, or hugging their relatives that had gone on before them. The Shooter learned that even though he thought everyone was against him there was someone crying out for a realtionship with him. Jesus wanted to to help him feel important and valued, but for whatever reason he either couldn't hear him or someone here in the World perverted the message and turned him away.

 

Anyway chances are the 32 victims are a lot happier than we are right now. Death is not an end, only the beginning.

 

As for Free Will being a "Get out jail free card" that is hardly true. God gave man the choice to allow evil in the world and we chose to eat of the fruit. Things that happen in the world are not the fault of God, but the fault of man. If everyone trusted in God this would not happen. You can't expect people who live apart from him to be good and make the right choices all the time. Adam and Eve severed the relationship between man and God and Jesus restored it, but he resotred it only if you want to have it. I have often heard it said it takes 100 steps to know God, and God has taken 99 of them, but the last one is up to you.

 

Bottomline without free will we would all be robots. God gave Cho a choice- choose him or choose the other path. Unfortunately the other path led to a tragic end for those here on Earth but it sent them to a new Beginning for Eternity. There lives are hardly over.

The problem I have with this answer is: If God is All Knowing, All Good, and All Merciful, He knew well in advance what Cho's 'free-will choice' would be, and if He is All Merciful, He should have intervened and stopped this atrocity. You can't have it both ways. Either be merciful and compassionate, and stop something bad that You know will happen before it occurs (which makes you a loving God), or don't get involved whatsoever, let 33 people die, and delete the 'All Good' part. Don't make a contradiction. Be a good parent. Don't put all the blame on Your creation with a 'free-will' issue.

Ah yes, the riddle of Epicurus...

 

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

In his book, Credo, William Sloan Coffin states - I paraphrase

 

Everytime that we stand around after some great tragedy and scream toward God, "why did you let this happern" - God is surely standing in heaven and crying toward us - "why did you let this happen".

 

We are God's hands and feet on this earth and I believe, as a general rule, God does nothing unless he does it THROUGH us. Of course through prayer and contemplation we can bring God's hand down and miracles can occur - but we are now God's representative.

 

When evil occurs it is because we have failed in our job to bring God's Kingdom to earth ('Thy Kingdom Come') it is not God's failing us.

 

Please let me caveat here that I love America and I love most everything that it stands for . . . but given that

 

It is man that has created a society of haves and have nots. It is man that is prejudiced and oppressive. It is man that withholds love from others. It was sick, twisted individual that committed these heinous acts but we have some liability in creating a world that causes people to act like this . . . some responsibility, some lies with us.

In his book, Credo, William Sloan Coffin states - I paraphrase

 

Everytime that we stand around after some great tragedy and scream toward God, "why did you let this happern" - God is surely standing in heaven and crying toward us - "why did you let this happen".

 

We are God's hands and feet on this earth and I believe, as a general rule, God does nothing unless he does it THROUGH us. Of course through prayer and contemplation we can bring God's hand down and miracles can occur - but we are now God's representative.

 

When evil occurs it is because we have failed in our job to bring God's Kingdom to earth ('Thy Kingdom Come') it is not God's failing us.

 

Please let me caveat here that I love America and I love most everything that it stands for . . . but given that

 

It is man that has created a society of haves and have nots. It is man that is prejudiced and oppressive. It is man that withholds love from others. It was sick, twisted individual that committed these heinous acts but we have some liability in creating a world that causes people to act like this . . . some responsibility, some lies with us.

 

Great post. People do blame God a little to much, man is to blame because we can easily be corrupted into doing what is not right.

Are they? There is a very good possibility that a number of them weren't believers and thus weren't saved and may have not had time to cry out to God. According to what most Christians believe, they are in hell now.

 

Most Christians? I doubt it.

God allowed Satan to test Job to the utmost...with the one implication that he could not take Job's life...Job was tested and in the end refused to give in to Satan's tortures and chose a life with God...Did these kids have that chance?

Most Christians? I doubt it.

 

I'm with you here, considering Roman Catholics and Greek, Russian and Armenian Orthodox practicioners vastly outnumber Protestants, and I've only ever heard Protestants use the term "saved."

I understand how logically the terms "free will" and "God has his reasons" don't make sense, but I think that is part of faith- accepting what goes beyond human reason.

In his book, Credo, William Sloan Coffin states - I paraphrase

 

Everytime that we stand around after some great tragedy and scream toward God, "why did you let this happern" - God is surely standing in heaven and crying toward us - "why did you let this happen".

 

We are God's hands and feet on this earth and I believe, as a general rule, God does nothing unless he does it THROUGH us. Of course through prayer and contemplation we can bring God's hand down and miracles can occur - but we are now God's representative.

 

.

I see something similar to this mindset in our schools today. Children do something and the parents come into schooling blaming the school for allowing it to happen.

 

Man is responsible for man's actions. But in our society today, we have gotten into such a feel good society that there is no responsibility for one's actions. It is a genetic condition. Society, violent games and movies, guns, etc, etc, etc.

 

Look at Cho's own words. "You made me do this."

 

Not his fault but passing the blame onto others.

Most Christians? I doubt it.

I disagree.

 

How do you understand the Bible that if any of the 32 had not given their life to Christ that they are saved?

 

I would LOVE to believe that but don't see that Scripturally. And to me, I have to go on what God says to me through the Bible.

I disagree.

 

How do you understand the Bible that if any of the 32 had not given their life to Christ that they are saved?

 

I would LOVE to believe that but don't see that Scripturally. And to me, I have to go on what God says to me through the Bible.

 

 

Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 says (v22) For as in Adam all die, so in Christ ALL will be made alive. v51: Listen, I tell you a mystery; We will not all sleep, but we will ALL be changed in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.

 

Christ's judgment is a redemtive one and even if the 32 where not yet "redeemed" when they died - who is to say that they will not be redeemed later.

 

That would be an awfully petty God who punished someone for ETERNITY for a mistake they may have made when they were 18 or 23 - don't you think.

 

GOD is so much bigger than that.

I disagree.

 

How do you understand the Bible that if any of the 32 had not given their life to Christ that they are saved?

 

I would LOVE to believe that but don't see that Scripturally. And to me, I have to go on what God says to me through the Bible.

 

I can't think of a single christian I know that would think those people are in hell. What is taught in churches and what people truly believe are 2 different things.

I can't think of a single christian I know that would think those people are in hell. What is taught in churches and what people truly believe are 2 different things.

Do you think they are in heaven because of the nature of their death?

 

I don't know any of them and cannot judge their life. I don't know if they were a Christian or not. I don't know if they would have been considered a "good" person or not.

 

Just curious on why you think they are in Heaven. Was it simply the nature of their death?

Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 says (v22) For as in Adam all die, so in Christ ALL will be made alive. v51: Listen, I tell you a mystery; We will not all sleep, but we will ALL be changed in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.

 

Christ's judgment is a redemtive one and even if the 32 where not yet "redeemed" when they died - who is to say that they will not be redeemed later.

 

That would be an awfully petty God who punished someone for ETERNITY for a mistake they may have made when they were 18 or 23 - don't you think.

 

GOD is so much bigger than that.

Who was Paul's audience in 1 Corinthians? Was it people who had given their life to Christ or all people?

 

I don't look at it as punishment. The kids in my classroom have a good understanding of my rules. They break one and there is punishment. Sometimes that is permanent removal from my classroom. Am I petty? They knew the rules, they chose to disregard them and hope I would give in later.

 

We know the rules with God. He was pretty clear in Scripture, give your life to Christ and have eternal life.

 

There was two thieves on the cross with Jesus. One gave his life to Christ and he was in bliss with Jesus that day. THe other did not and he was not. To me, that indicats we have two choices. Accept or reject. Be saved or not.

 

Another question, if it does not matter on whether to give your life to Christ or not, why did Jesus give us the Great Commission? Why is our focus to bring others to Christ, if it does not matter? That would seem to be a tremendous waste of our time, if it doesn't matter.

 

As I said, earlier, I would love to think that those loved ones in my life that did not think they had to give their life to Christ and died are in Heaven. And I would like to have indication of that from Scripture. But I do not see that in Scripture.

 

I am fully open minded to listen to Scripture and admit I am wrong. What I won't do is take some man-made idea and bow to public opinion or societal pressure that stands in contrast to Scripture.