Who was Paul's audience in 1 Corinthians? Was it people who had given their life to Christ or all people?

 

I don't look at it as punishment. The kids in my classroom have a good understanding of my rules. They break one and there is punishment. Sometimes that is permanent removal from my classroom. Am I petty? They knew the rules, they chose to disregard them and hope I would give in later.

 

We know the rules with God. He was pretty clear in Scripture, give your life to Christ and have eternal life.

 

There was two thieves on the cross with Jesus. One gave his life to Christ and he was in bliss with Jesus that day. THe other did not and he was not. To me, that indicats we have two choices. Accept or reject. Be saved or not.

 

Another question, if it does not matter on whether to give your life to Christ or not, why did Jesus give us the Great Commission? Why is our focus to bring others to Christ, if it does not matter? That would seem to be a tremendous waste of our time, if it doesn't matter.

 

As I said, earlier, I would love to think that those loved ones in my life that did not think they had to give their life to Christ and died are in Heaven. And I would like to have indication of that from Scripture. But I do not see that in Scripture.

 

I am fully open minded to listen to Scripture and admit I am wrong. What I won't do is take some man-made idea and bow to public opinion or societal pressure that stands in contrast to Scripture.

 

When we accept Christ in this life we are able to have "life more abundantly" because we are functioning in manner for which we were created.

 

I absolutely think you would be petty if the child broke the rules in your classroom and that child was prevented from going to school the rest of his/her life. One mistake in an 8 hour day against some classroom rules and a punishment that lasts for the rest of his/her life? That is the better analogy.

 

I would also like to believe that your "punishment" is redemptive in nature, an attempt to make the student whole and "repair" the student's relationship with you. Not a punishment that results in shunning the student forever.

The problem I have with this answer is: If God is All Knowing, All Good, and All Merciful, He knew well in advance what Cho's 'free-will choice' would be, and if He is All Merciful, He should have intervened and stopped this atrocity. You can't have it both ways. Either be merciful and compassionate, and stop something bad that You know will happen before it occurs (which makes you a loving God), or don't get involved whatsoever, let 33 people die, and delete the 'All Good' part. Don't make a contradiction. Be a good parent. Don't put all the blame on Your creation with a 'free-will' issue.

 

Maybe since He is All-Knowing, He knew in advance Cho's decision...and He also knew in advance, that of the 32 people that lost their lives, the ones who were going to accept Him had already done so, and the ones who had not were never going to, and that this tragedy would bring more people to Him. If you want to play this game it can be used to argue either side...

When we accept Christ in this life we are able to have "life more abundantly" because we are functioning in manner for which we were created.

 

I absolutely think you would be petty if the child broke the rules in your classroom and that child was prevented from going to school the rest of his/her life. One mistake in an 8 hour day against some classroom rules and a punishment that lasts for the rest of his/her life? That is the better analogy.

 

I would also like to believe that your "punishment" is redemptive in nature, an attempt to make the student whole and "repair" the student's relationship with you. Not a punishment that results in shunning the student forever.

Some rules, they are punished for a short time.

Some rules, they are punished for the day.

Some rules, they are punished for several days.

And for some rules, they are punished for the remainder of the year. (state law prevents the punishment to be carried over into the next year)

 

Some punishment is designed to separate the student. If they are selling drugs on campus or have shown they are a danger to the faculty/students.

 

I know it is nice and feely to believe the other but we have story after story after story in the OT and the NT to indicate that God is merciful but also is wrathful. (is that a word?)

 

During the story of Moses and the 10 Commandments, he opened up the ground and swallowed, I believe, 3,000 that were involved in the Golden Calf situation.

 

In Revelations, it indicates he will harden some hearts against him just as he did pharoah during the Moses story.

 

Why, I don't know. But it is what Scripture tells us.

 

When Jesus whipped the money changers from the temple, do you think that turned their hearts to Jesus and were redemptive in nature?

Some rules, they are punished for a short time.

Some rules, they are punished for the day.

Some rules, they are punished for several days.

And for some rules, they are punished for the remainder of the year. (state law prevents the punishment to be carried over into the next year)

 

Some punishment is designed to separate the student. If they are selling drugs on campus or have shown they are a danger to the faculty/students.

 

I know it is nice and feely to believe the other but we have story after story after story in the OT and the NT to indicate that God is merciful but also is wrathful. (is that a word?)

 

During the story of Moses and the 10 Commandments, he opened up the ground and swallowed, I believe, 3,000 that were involved in the Golden Calf situation.

 

In Revelations, it indicates he will harden some hearts against him just as he did pharoah during the Moses story.

 

Why, I don't know. But it is what Scripture tells us.

 

When Jesus whipped the money changers from the temple, do you think that turned their hearts to Jesus and were redemptive in nature?

 

I'm not sure, but vengeful would probably fit what you're saying as well. And, don't forget jealous. I agree with pretty much all you've said throughout the thread. Like you, I'd love to believe otherwise, but the Bible seems to make the requirement of salvation pretty clear and I don't feel like I'm in a position to change that. As much as I'd love for everybody to get into a heaven, it just doesn't work that way.

 

As a Christian who believes in the Bible as the sole authority, there is no other alternative for me.

From Acts 4:12

8Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: "Rulers and elders of the people! 9If we are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a cripple and are asked how he was healed, 10then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. 11He is

" 'the stone you builders rejected,

which has become the capstone.[a]' 12Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved." (Emphasis mine)

 

Seems pretty clear cut that Jesus is the only way to salvation.

Philippians 2:8:9:10:11...And being found in appearnce as a Man he humbles himself and became obedient to death...even death on a cross.

 

Therefore GOD exalted him to the highest place...and gave him the name that is above every name.

 

that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, In heaven and on Earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the Glory of God the father.

 

Although all people will one day see Jesus and worship him, only those who put their Faith in him in this life will have an everlasting relationship with him after death no matter how that person reaches their death.

Philippians 2:8:9:10:11...And being found in appearnce as a Man he humbles himself and became obedient to death...even death on a cross.

 

Therefore GOD exalted him to the highest place...and gave him the name that is above every name.

 

that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, In heaven and on Earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the Glory of God the father.

 

Although all people will one day see Jesus and worship him, only those who put their Faith in him in this life will have an everlasting relationship with him after death no matter how that person reaches their death.[/QUOTE]

 

The bold is something you have added.

 

Matthew 25 does not talk about having a relationship at all with Jesus Christ and the sheep there are still going to heaven.

 

In 1 Peter, Jesus goes to preach to those in hell - why, if there was not a chance of redemtion.

 

Where in the scripture does it say that Jesus/God ever quits pursuing His children?

 

How does a wrathful, vengeful, God jive with a God who says "I AM LOVE". God doesn't say that I practice love, or I particpate in love, or I like to Love people, GOD says I AM LOVE.

 

Grace comes freely - the statements you guys are making puts a price tag on it.

 

Why would call tell us to forgive 7x70 (or infinitely) when GOD is not willing to do that?

From Acts 4:12

8Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: "Rulers and elders of the people! 9If we are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a cripple and are asked how he was healed, 10then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. 11He is

" 'the stone you builders rejected,

which has become the capstone.[a]' 12Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved." (Emphasis mine)

 

Seems pretty clear cut that Jesus is the only way to salvation.

 

Tell me EXACTLY what your "emphasis" means. Can it not mean that because of Jesus, and only Jesus all people will be saved? For as All Men because pf Adam were to die, so ALL men because of Jesus are to live.

 

Why do we attribute so much more power to Adam than we do to Jesus.

 

According to YOU (most people on this thread), whether I believe in ADAM or not I am going to hell - because of what ADAM did. Why is not the opposite true b/c of what Jesus did? Jesus just not that powerful?

Tell me EXACTLY what your "emphasis" means. Can it not mean that because of Jesus, and only Jesus all people will be saved? For as All Men because pf Adam were to die, so ALL men because of Jesus are to live.

 

Why do we attribute so much more power to Adam than we do to Jesus.

 

According to YOU (most people on this thread), whether I believe in ADAM or not I am going to hell - because of what ADAM did. Why is not the opposite true b/c of what Jesus did? Jesus just not that powerful?

Not sure what you are saying but my view is that you go to heaven ONLY if you believe in Jesus. Not any of the other deities that have been set up by man. That is the claim that was being made here about Jesus.

 

What I bolded from your post is my feelings from reading Scripture.

 

I have NEVER attributed power to Adam in the manner you have stated. Not sure I have ever read anyone else on this thread attibuting that power to him either.

Not sure what you are saying but my view is that you go to heaven ONLY if you believe in Jesus. Not any of the other deities that have been set up by man. That is the claim that was being made here about Jesus.

 

What I bolded from your post is my feelings from reading Scripture.

 

I have NEVER attributed power to Adam in the manner you have stated. Not sure I have ever read anyone else on this thread attibuting that power to him either.

 

So if I DIE having never even heard of Jesus, I am going to hell. B/C I certainly have no chance of believing in Him if I have not heard of him. So much for those non-limbo babies the Catholics were recently talking about. What an awfully small God

 

The scripture does attributes that to ADAM. . .

 

1 Corinthians 15:22

 

For as in Adam all (doesn't that mean everybody) die, so in Christ all (why doesn't this mean everybody?) will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn

 

Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

So if I DIE having never even heard of Jesus, I am going to hell. B/C I certainly have no chance of believing in Him if I have not heard of him. So much for those non-limbo babies the Catholics were recently talking about. What an awfully small God

 

The scripture does attributes that to ADAM. . .

 

1 Corinthians 15:22

 

For as in Adam all (doesn't that mean everybody) die, so in Christ all (why doesn't this mean everybody?) will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn

 

Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

 

So what exactly is your stance ace, just so I can be clear...it seems that you believe everyone will attain salvation from what your posting, but I'd rather confirm in flat out rather than make that assumption.

So if I DIE having never even heard of Jesus, I am going to hell. B/C I certainly have no chance of believing in Him if I have not heard of him. So much for those non-limbo babies the Catholics were recently talking about. What an awfully small God

 

The scripture does attributes that to ADAM. . .

 

1 Corinthians 15:22

 

For as in Adam all (doesn't that mean everybody) die, so in Christ all (why doesn't this mean everybody?) will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn

 

Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

You have confused me a little. At the beginning you seem to believe that all can be saved without knowing Christ.

 

But then in the Scripture you indicate that it is pretty cut and dry to you that in Christ everyone will be made alive.

 

For me, I don't know about those who do not know Christ. I believe God has something to handle their situation. Everyone before the NT, didn't know Christ and yet I believe those who committed their lives to God are in heaven. I don't think Scripture is clear on that matter. If it is, I don't the Scripture and would love for someone to educate me.

 

I do think it is clear that Christians should have a PASSION for bringing people to Christ so that we take the chance of not knowing out of the equation.

 

To me, you can either know Christ and be sure, or hope that there is a plan and not be sure.

 

As far as God being small, I thought you were the one talking about not judging? I would say at the end of time with every knee bowed and every tongue confessing you can ask him that question.

 

As God said in one point, did you put the sun in the sky? did you create everything? Are you so all-powerful and all-knowing that you know what is best?

 

I know the answer for me and that is a MAJOR NO, I don't know what is best. That is why I try to base what I can strongly in Scripture.

You have confused me a little. At the beginning you seem to believe that all can be saved without knowing Christ.

 

But then in the Scripture you indicate that it is pretty cut and dry to you that in Christ everyone will be made alive.

 

For me, I don't know about those who do not know Christ. I believe God has something to handle their situation. Everyone before the NT, didn't know Christ and yet I believe those who committed their lives to God are in heaven. I don't think Scripture is clear on that matter. If it is, I don't the Scripture and would love for someone to educate me.

 

I do think it is clear that Christians should have a PASSION for bringing people to Christ so that we take the chance of not knowing out of the equation.

 

To me, you can either know Christ and be sure, or hope that there is a plan and not be sure.

 

As far as God being small, I thought you were the one talking about not judging? I would say at the end of time with every knee bowed and every tongue confessing you can ask him that question.

 

As God said in one point, did you put the sun in the sky? did you create everything? Are you so all-powerful and all-knowing that you know what is best?

 

I know the answer for me and that is a MAJOR NO, I don't know what is best. That is why I try to base what I can strongly in Scripture.

 

In reference to God being small, my comment was that some statements on here sure do limit God and God's mercy - making God small. I believe God is much bigger than we allow God to be.

 

So EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus is Lord, and then some of them will be sent of to hell? That is the statement you are going with.

 

"In Christ" does not necessarily mean - confessing to a personal relationship with Jesus in this world. It means, that because of the work/sacrifice of Jesus that ALL will be brought to God.

 

If you take the scripture literally, you cannot in good faith say that those in the old testament are going to heaven . . . how to you do that, given what you believe the new testament says about salvation, it doesn't jive, unless you don't take the scripture literally. You cannot also say that those who live in the outback in australia and have never heard of Jesus are going to heaven. According to your reading of the NT they are simply out of luck because of their birthplace - the scripture does not allow for them to enter Heaven with a literal interpretation of some of the verses.

 

We are saved, in the words of a modern day lyricist . . .

 

"not because of who I am, but because of what you have done,

not because of what I've done, but because of who you are"

 

That is great theology to me.

Ace, glad you are responding to the thread. Yeah I added some comments to the scripture. I've been known to do that.

You have confused me a little. At the beginning you seem to believe that all can be saved without knowing Christ.

 

But then in the Scripture you indicate that it is pretty cut and dry to you that in Christ everyone will be made alive.

 

For me, I don't know about those who do not know Christ. I believe God has something to handle their situation. Everyone before the NT, didn't know Christ and yet I believe those who committed their lives to God are in heaven. I don't think Scripture is clear on that matter. If it is, I don't the Scripture and would love for someone to educate me.

 

I do think it is clear that Christians should have a PASSION for bringing people to Christ so that we take the chance of not knowing out of the equation.

 

To me, you can either know Christ and be sure, or hope that there is a plan and not be sure.

 

As far as God being small, I thought you were the one talking about not judging? I would say at the end of time with every knee bowed and every tongue confessing you can ask him that question.

 

As God said in one point, did you put the sun in the sky? did you create everything? Are you so all-powerful and all-knowing that you know what is best?

 

I know the answer for me and that is a MAJOR NO, I don't know what is best. That is why I try to base what I can strongly in Scripture.

 

I think they were saved by faith in Christ, just like us...the difference being that the the plan of salvation wasn't fully revealed to them like it is to us. All they knew was that God had promised a Messiah to redeem them, whereas we know all about Jesus. That's my take on it anyway. I base that on Hebrews 11. Sorry to get off topic there...