I guess I'll just make a few comments rather than try to reply separately to the comments...

 

First, I'd like to believe that God has a different plan for people who never hear about Christ in their life. I don't know if He does or not, because scripture doesn't really address that. It certainly seems unfair for a person to be judged on whether they accepted Christ when they never heard about Him. So, I don't know about that...I hope they have a chance.

 

But, for people who have heard of Him, the Bible makes it pretty clear to me that accepting Him is the only way.

 

As far as people living a life pleasing to God, how would you reconcile that to

 

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those earnestly seek him.

 

As for the implication that people have some sort of chance at redemption post-mortem, how would you explain

 

Hebrews 9:27,28 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgement, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

 

2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

 

I Peter 3:18 ff

For Christ died for sins once for ALL, the righteous and the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the spirit, (19) through whom also he went and preched to the spirits in Prison (hell) who disobeyed long ago . . .

2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

 

I Peter 3:18 ff

For Christ died for sins once for ALL, the righteous and the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the spirit, (19) through whom also he went and preched to the spirits in Prison (hell) who disobeyed long ago . . .

What God wants and what man chooses to do is sometimes two different things. I am sure God did not want Adam and Eve to eat of the apple, but they did and the punishment came.

 

I am absolutely sure in my belief that God wants everyone to come to repentance and that is the reason He sent His Son. Unfortunately, Scripture indicates that some people will CHOOSE not to and that same Son will be the stumbling block for some.

 

And that 19 is VERY interesting. Remember hell will be thrown into the lake of fire also.

What God wants and what man chooses to do is sometimes two different things. I am sure God did not want Adam and Eve to eat of the apple, but they did and the punishment came.

 

I am absolutely sure in my belief that God wants everyone to come to repentance and that is the reason He sent His Son. Unfortunately, Scripture indicates that some people will CHOOSE not to and that same Son will be the stumbling block for some.

 

And that 19 is VERY interesting. Remember hell will be thrown into the lake of fire also.

 

I still think you have to be real careful with literal interpretation. If you read all of 1 Peter 2:8 you can easily get the impression that those for whom Jesus was a stumbling block were predestined to do so. And that gets us back to the thread topic of Free Will.

 

1 Peter 2:8

. . . They stumbe because they disobey the message - which is also what they were destined for. (9) But you are a chosen people - If there is a group who was Chosen and a group destined to stumble, where is the free will.

 

1 John 2:1 Also reads " . . . But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the father in our defense - Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. (2) he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for our but also for the sins of the whole world."

I still think you have to be real careful with literal interpretation. If you read all of 1 Peter 2:8 you can easily get the impression that those for whom Jesus was a stumbling block were predestined to do so. And that gets us back to the thread topic of Free Will.

 

1 Peter 2:8

. . . They stumbe because they disobey the message - which is also what they were destined for. (9) But you are a chosen people - If there is a group who was Chosen and a group destined to stumble, where is the free will.

 

1 John 2:1 Also reads " . . . But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the father in our defense - Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. (2) he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for our but also for the sins of the whole world."

This seems pretty clear on the matter and comes from Jesus,

 

Matthew 7

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

This seems pretty clear on the matter and comes from Jesus,

 

Matthew 7

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

 

My point exactly - it is not about saying that you believe, or holding the right theology, it is about doing God's will.

 

Gandhi, therefore, is in heaven - "a bad tree cannot bear good fruit." Matthew 7:18

This seems pretty clear on the matter and comes from Jesus,

 

Matthew 7

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

My point exactly - it is not about saying that you believe, or holding the right theology, it is about doing God's will.

 

Gandhi, therefore, is in heaven - "a bad tree cannot bear good fruit." Matthew 7:18

 

Not sure that is what Jesus is saying. There were some who thought they were doing the Lord's work and Jesus said, "Nope." Ghandi may fit in that category, I do not know. He may disqualify them because they never accepted Christ.

 

Also, you seemed to have moved your point. Here Jesus clearly indicates that there will be some that will not make it into Heaven because He did not know them. Seems evident that if you don't know Jesus, you might find yourself on the outside looking in.

 

It seems the safest route is to realize that and strive to have a meaningful relationship with Christ rather than just hope that your life is working for the Lord and not accepting Christ.

 

I have enjoyed the discussion.:thumb:

Not sure that is what Jesus is saying. There were some who thought they were doing the Lord's work and Jesus said, "Nope."

 

Also, you seemed to have moved your point. Here Jesus clearly indicates that there will be some that will not make it into Heaven because He did not know them. Seems evident that if you don't know Jesus, you might find yourself on the outside looking in.

 

It seems the safest route is to realize that and strive to have a meaningful relationship with Christ rather than just hope that your life is working for the Lord and not accepting Christ.

 

I have enjoyed the discussion.:thumb:

 

It seems I have moved my point, only b/c it is so fluid and not black and white. I certianly believe that b/c of Jesus I can have a relationship with God now and for eternity. I am just not definite in how that occurs. I have no answers, only questions, but I think God loves me anyway.

It seems I have moved my point, only b/c it is so fluid and not black and white. I certianly believe that b/c of Jesus I can have a relationship with God now and for eternity. I am just not definite in how that occurs. I have no answers, only questions, but I think God loves me anyway.

I agree with the bolded but think it is very dangerous to be telling others that they can make it into Heaven without that relationship since Scripture is not as black/white on that position.

I agree with the bolded but think it is very dangerous to be telling others that they can make it into Heaven without that relationship since Scripture is not as black/white on that position.

 

I would never tell someone that they can make it to heaven without a relationship with Jesus. That is the way. But I don't believe a relationship comes from simply making a public confession. You pointed that out in one of your scriptures. I do think that Jesus can find people without them knowing it - the Asian Holy Man - and that there are provisions for those who do not hear the word.

 

I do believe it is possible to reject Jesus here and face the threat of eternity out of the presence of God. I think this is hard to do when someone is introduced to the Loving God of the New Testament and not the god painted by Falwell and Robertson.

 

I like to hold out hope that even then, after rejection and death, God would be the waiting father hoping for YOU (general you) to turn back to Him.