In reference to God being small, my comment was that some statements on here sure do limit God and God's mercy - making God small. I believe God is much bigger than we allow God to be.

 

So EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus is Lord, and then some of them will be sent of to hell? That is the statement you are going with.

 

"In Christ" does not necessarily mean - confessing to a personal relationship with Jesus in this world. It means, that because of the work/sacrifice of Jesus that ALL will be brought to God.

 

If you take the scripture literally, you cannot in good faith say that those in the old testament are going to heaven . . . how to you do that, given what you believe the new testament says about salvation, it doesn't jive, unless you don't take the scripture literally. You cannot also say that those who live in the outback in australia and have never heard of Jesus are going to heaven. According to your reading of the NT they are simply out of luck because of their birthplace - the scripture does not allow for them to enter Heaven with a literal interpretation of some of the verses.

 

We are saved, in the words of a modern day lyricist . . .

 

"not because of who I am, but because of what you have done,

not because of what I've done, but because of who you are"

 

That is great theology to me.

 

I'm sorry ace, but again, it seems to me that you're saying everyone will be saved...that no one is going to the lake of fire via hell. You can correct me if I'm wrong in assuming that, because believe me, I'd love to be. I just can't see how any significant reading of the Bible could lead anyone to that conclusion.

Ace, The disciples were confused and asked Jesus (Thomas) "how can we know the way?" And Jesus replied using probaby one of the most Famous verses in the Bible next to John 3:16 and Psalms 23..."I am the Way, the truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

 

Move on to verse 23..."If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him".

 

Verse 24...he who does not love me will not obey my teaching.

 

I'll add this part. The disciples who lived and walked with Christ never did get it until he came back to them from the Cross, we don't have that luxury. But we do have Faith and the Scriptures.

 

Study the book of John.

In reference to God being small, my comment was that some statements on here sure do limit God and God's mercy - making God small. I believe God is much bigger than we allow God to be.

I absolutely agree that we put God in a box too many times and limit what he can and cannot do. God can forgive everyone if he chooses. My only basis is what he left us to understand in Scripture and he does not seem to indicate that.

 

 

So EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus is Lord, and then some of them will be sent of to hell? That is the statement you are going with.

That is the Scripture that I am going with. This is not MY OPINION. We are not talking about LBBC Christianity. We are talking what is said and indicated in Scripture. If you can show me Scripture that indicates to you that someone can reject God and Jesus and still end up in Heaven, I would love to read it.

 

"In Christ" does not necessarily mean - confessing to a personal relationship with Jesus in this world. It means, that because of the work/sacrifice of Jesus that ALL will be brought to God.

 

If you take the scripture literally, you cannot in good faith say that those in the old testament are going to heaven . . . how to you do that, given what you believe the new testament says about salvation, it doesn't jive, unless you don't take the scripture literally. You cannot also say that those who live in the outback in australia and have never heard of Jesus are going to heaven. According to your reading of the NT they are simply out of luck because of their birthplace - the scripture does not allow for them to enter Heaven with a literal interpretation of some of the verses.

 

So your position is I can live whatever life I want to because it doesn't matter to my eternal salvation? I don't think Scripture indicates that at all. Are you discounted all of Revelations that indicate some will NOT GET INTO heaven?

 

 

We are saved, in the words of a modern day lyricist . . .

 

"not because of who I am, but because of what you have done,

not because of what I've done, but because of who you are"

 

That is great theology to me.

Great, great song. Not sure I am ready to stake my eternal soul on the mindset that I have to do nothing including accepting Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior.

The Dead Are Judged

11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

Ace will there be anyone's name not found in the book of life? Anyone from after Christ's death, burial and resurrection?

The Dead Are Judged

11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

Ace will there be anyone's name not found in the book of life? Anyone from after Christ's death, burial and resurrection?

 

And each person was judged according to what he had DONE - not what he had believed.

 

BTW you ask me earlier who Paul was speaking to in 1 Cor. - I would say who is John speaking to in Revelations? We know that most of the book is symbolic, why is this part not?

 

Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire after they had given up their dead - where do their dead go after being judged. How can "death" be thrown into hell, or hell be thrown into hell?

 

Is it not possible that John is just letting the Turks know that there was a power mightier than Domitian and since John could not put into real words the power of awesomeness of Jesus he had to paint a picture as best he could?

Just so I can be clear - hear is my ever emerging theology:

 

Christ is the way for people to get to heaven -

 

People searching for God and trying to do the right thing can find God, even if they have never heard of Jesus Christ - Christ sacrifice/obedience/service/GRACE is sufficient for ALL even those who will never hear his name or the Gospel.

 

Thomas Merton says that the search for God is pleasing to God, and I cannot accept that someone who does something pleasing to God will go to hell, simply b/c they have not heard someone preach the Bible.

 

I believe that there are those who will reject Christ in this life, but just like the parable of the Waiting Father (prodigal son) Jesus/God will always be ready to accept them, when they are finally compelled through the love of God to turn toward God. Prior to that turning they will have an existence of absence from everything that we associate with God - primarily Faith, Hope, and Love.

 

I think that there are those among us who are close to God/Jesus and don't know that they are. Tony Campolo tells a great story of just such a person in his most recent book.

 

I think God's love is about inclusion, not exclusion and the more conditions we put on getting to heaven the more exclusionary we become and the less like God.

 

I think we spread the Gospel so that people can have Life now and have it more abundantly. The Gospel is not about the way to keep from going to hell, it is about developing a relationship with Christ so that you can live this life in the purpose for which you were designed.

 

I think there are those who would say that they are not saved, and yet they live a life very pleasing to God, and that has to be pleasing to God - does it not? I think they live the Gospel of Matthew 25 - exactly as it is written and in so doing I think that Jesus may find them, even if they don't find Jesus.

 

The more people that experience an ongoing relationship with Jesus, the closer we come to bringing Jesus' Kingdom on earth - Thy Kingdom Come, Thy will be Done ON EARTH.

 

I think Salvation is much more about this life than it is about the next one. Study hard the teachings of John and see if he is not in that same boat.

Ace -- For those that have NEVER HEARD about Jesus, I agree that I think God has a plan for them that he did not reveal in Scripture.

 

For those that have heard about Jesus and I believe that would include about 99% of the American population, I don't think they fall in this category. To much is Jesus out there in different forms to not have heard something.

 

And I agree with you that Jesus is like the Father waiting on the Prodigal Son. Problem is, Revelations tells us that some will NEVER come to accepting Christ till that Eternal Judgement when every knee will bow and every tongue confess and Revelations leads us to believe that there will be names NOT written in the Book of Life and cast into the lake of fire, NOT hell but the lake of fire.

 

I think what is pleasing to God is that we acknowledge and accept what His Son did for us.

 

I hope that He is not taken a running tally and we have to EARN our way into Heaven. Your comment on living a life pleasing to him implies that we can EARN our way into Heaven. And I don't think any of us can be perfect enough to be in God's presence on our own.

 

And lastly, I love his line you typed.......

 

The Gospel is not about the way to keep from going to hell, it is about developing a relationship with Christ so that you can live this life in the purpose for which you were designed.

I did not mean to imply that you earn your way, I would be more than a day late and a dollar short

 

My point, not so cleary communicated, is that salvation is not about believing the right thing. Even the demons believe that Christ is the Son of God, Salvation is about a relationship that causes me to do the right thing.

 

The story from Tony Campolo that I referred to earlier is about an Asian Holy Man who was approached by a western missionary. The western missionary gave the story of Jesus and all of the Gospels and His saving Grace, and he ended by asking the Holy Man if he would like to come to know Jesus. The Holy Man replied - I have known Him all of my life, you have just now given Him a name.

 

i agree that 99% of Americans know ABOUT Jesus, but they only know the Jesus portrayed by the Westboro Baptist People, or the Jesus portrayed by Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell who said that 9-11 and Katrina was brought on by God punishing America for its gayness. (They of course said more than that . . .). They also only know the Jesus portrayed by the Kentucky State Legislature who may soon work to deny health benefits to someone because they are Gay. If this is the only Jesus I knew, I might reject it too. Fortunately I have found a Jesus who loves me, despite my sin and shortcomings and would not deny me health benefits because of them.

 

Gandhi even said that he loved Christ, but he didn't think much about some of his followers.

 

I don't know where to draw the line, only God does, but again I find that it would be a very small God who could not find redemption for Gandhi - who may have been one of the most peaceful, loving human beings to have ever walked the earth - and yet a thief and robber who lived potential a life of violence and hatred will be rewarded in heaven b/c at the hour of his death he says, wow - you must be the son of God. I am hopeful that there is room with God for both.

I did not mean to imply that you earn your way, I would be more than a day late and a dollar short

 

My point, not so cleary communicated, is that salvation is not about believing the right thing. Even the demons believe that Christ is the Son of God, Salvation is about a relationship that causes me to do the right thing.

 

The story from Tony Campolo that I referred to earlier is about an Asian Holy Man who was approached by a western missionary. The western missionary gave the story of Jesus and all of the Gospels and His saving Grace, and he ended by asking the Holy Man if he would like to come to know Jesus. The Holy Man replied - I have known Him all of my life, you have just now given Him a name.

 

i agree that 99% of Americans know ABOUT Jesus, but they only know the Jesus portrayed by the Westboro Baptist People, or the Jesus portrayed by Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell who said that 9-11 and Katrina was brought on by God punishing America for its gayness. (They of course said more than that . . .). They also only know the Jesus portrayed by the Kentucky State Legislature who may soon work to deny health benefits to someone because they are Gay. If this is the only Jesus I knew, I might reject it too. Fortunately I have found a Jesus who loves me, despite my sin and shortcomings and would not deny me health benefits because of them.

 

Gandhi even said that he loved Christ, but he didn't think much about some of his followers.

 

I don't know where to draw the line, only God does, but again I find that it would be a very small God who could not find redemption for Gandhi - who may have been one of the most peaceful, loving human beings to have ever walked the earth - and yet a thief and robber who lived potential a life of violence and hatred will be rewarded in heaven b/c at the hour of his death he says, wow - you must be the son of God. I am hopeful that there is room with God for both.

Bolded is right on.

 

On the 99% if that is the ONLY Jesus they know about then they are choosing to not know about any others. Local communities are filled with churches reaching out and doing things in their communities for the poor, the weak and the like. Right beside them in their jobs and in their classrooms are Christians who are talking about the love of Jesus Christ.

 

And I believe that those who purport that is their Christianity like the Westboro group are pawns of Satan to deflect and weaken the Message.

 

Question about the last paragraph, the religious who felt they were living a righteous life were told by Jesus they they had it all wrong and yet he told the thief right beside him that he would be in paradise with him that day. In essence, the people of that day (similar to how we would view Ghandi) would tell you that the Pharisees and Sanducees were right on while the thief was way off base. And yet according to Jesus, the opposite was true.

 

One gave his life to Christ and found eternal salvation while we can safely assume that SOME of the Pharisees and Sanducees did not and did not.

I guess I'll just make a few comments rather than try to reply separately to the comments...

 

First, I'd like to believe that God has a different plan for people who never hear about Christ in their life. I don't know if He does or not, because scripture doesn't really address that. It certainly seems unfair for a person to be judged on whether they accepted Christ when they never heard about Him. So, I don't know about that...I hope they have a chance.

 

But, for people who have heard of Him, the Bible makes it pretty clear to me that accepting Him is the only way.

 

As far as people living a life pleasing to God, how would you reconcile that to

 

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those earnestly seek him.

 

As for the implication that people have some sort of chance at redemption post-mortem, how would you explain

 

Hebrews 9:27,28 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgement, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

I don't believe that God interferes with human wickedness. We will pay for the sins of humanity on earth until the savior returns. Human wickedness will persistantly get worse until the day of judgement. JMO

Bolded is right on.

 

On the 99% if that is the ONLY Jesus they know about then they are choosing to not know about any others. Local communities are filled with churches reaching out and doing things in their communities for the poor, the weak and the like. Right beside them in their jobs and in their classrooms are Christians who are talking about the love of Jesus Christ.

 

And I believe that those who purport that is their Christianity like the Westboro group are pawns of Satan to deflect and weaken the Message.

 

Question about the last paragraph, the religious who felt they were living a righteous life were told by Jesus they they had it all wrong and yet he told the thief right beside him that he would be in paradise with him that day. In essence, the people of that day (similar to how we would view Ghandi) would tell you that the Pharisees and Sanducees were right on while the thief was way off base. And yet according to Jesus, the opposite was true.

 

One gave his life to Christ and found eternal salvation while we can safely assume that SOME of the Pharisees and Sanducees did not and did not.

 

The thief does present a quandry, however . . .

 

I would equate Falwell and Robertson with the Pharisees and Saducees who make salvation about following the rules and not about grace. I think Gandhi is the furthest thing from that. He did not talk to people about following all the rules, he just lived his life according to Gospel principals. I really think you miss the point in making that analogy. The religious leaders of Jesus day were all about exclusion, while Jesus was about inclusion. Gandhi was also about inclusion. "I am both muslim and hindu (and Christian)"

On the point about Jesus being a stumbling block for those who might not make their way into Heaven, Peter addresses that.....

 

1 Peter 2:7-9 (New International Version)

New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

 

 

7Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,

"The stone the builders rejected

has become the capstone,[a]" 8and,

"A stone that causes men to stumble

and a rock that makes them fall."[c] They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.

 

It seems that this Scripture indicates that the message that Jesus teaches of Him being the Way, the Truth and the Life, will be "a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall."

 

Now is falling meaning not making it into Heaven becomes the question.

I guess I'll just make a few comments rather than try to reply separately to the comments...

 

First, I'd like to believe that God has a different plan for people who never hear about Christ in their life. I don't know if He does or not, because scripture doesn't really address that. It certainly seems unfair for a person to be judged on whether they accepted Christ when they never heard about Him. So, I don't know about that...I hope they have a chance.

 

But, for people who have heard of Him, the Bible makes it pretty clear to me that accepting Him is the only way.

 

As far as people living a life pleasing to God, how would you reconcile that to

 

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those earnestly seek him.

 

As for the implication that people have some sort of chance at redemption post-mortem, how would you explain

 

Hebrews 9:27,28 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgement, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

I agree.

Some very well thought out posts in this thread. I have enjoyed reading most of them. Religion is one BGP topic (and there are others as well;) ) that I never have anything worthy to add to the conversation. This post is an excellent example of my point.