I'll start by saying, I appreciate all that Highschool coaches do for sports and specifically the game of baseball.  Some coaches are teachers, faculty, and some are regular Joes making a small wage for he hours they commit.  With that being said, what is it with Coaches and the Pitch Count ?  

I've watched 3 games in particular this season where a Varsity Coach has had a Varsity pitcher throwing over 100 pitches in a game.  These aren't just average pitchers either.  The 3 I'm referring to all throw between 86-90 mph consistently.  In the 4th week of the KY Varsity season, these guys are throwing pitchers 110, to as much as 120 + pitches per game.  The KHSAA sets the following guidelines, but when does common sense come in to the fold with regard to the long term health of kid's arms?

• Maximum Pitches – 120
• 76 pitches or more – Three (3) calendar days of rest
• 51-75 – Two (2) calendar days of rest
• 26-50 – One (1) calendar day of rest
• 1-25 – No mandated rest

I've also seen kids throw 100 + pitches on day 1 and play SS or CF on day 3.  I know it's an issue because I hear fans discussing it at the games while it's happening.  Some parents don't seem to mind, but when you factor in that their kids are playing a full season of HS ball then moving straight into summer / travel ball thru August (normally), that's a monumental amount of stress on a kid's arm.   I just continue to SMH when I see this happening.  I was wondering what others are thinking on this issue ?  

Coaches definitely need to be called out on the pitch count issue but that has to come from the parents. What I watched on Sunday was, in my honest opinion, disgusting. In no way, shape or form, should a 15/16/17 year old kid throw 122 pitches. The game was out of hand but the coaches still forced the kid, who multiple people from the home team brought up his history of arm issues, to continue throwing. The same team had a kid shut down for 3-4 weeks because of arm issues and brought him back only to throw 93 pitches in his first outing. Again, that’s disgusting.

This is obviously just two instances but I’ve continually watched it game after game and no one is speaking up about it. I say that because I watch the same teams do it on a nightly basis by checking box scores and seeing “total pitches”. Nothing is changing and it’s only the kids getting “punished”. 

Part of the issue here in KY are the scheduling rules. Kentucky teams simply play too many games. Many teams, and pretty much all the competitive ones are playing 3 to 4 games every week. And very few have the pitching depth to manage 36 games (not including the post season) in a way that prevents kids from going deep into pitch counts. Sure coaches could always schedule less, but that isn't a good look either. With regular season games basically being meaningless if they aren't the 3 or 4 district seed games, there's no reason to play more than 24 or so games. Many states cap the season at 20 or so games. 

2 hours ago, rjs4470 said:

Part of the issue here in KY are the scheduling rules. Kentucky teams simply play too many games. Many teams, and pretty much all the competitive ones are playing 3 to 4 games every week. And very few have the pitching depth to manage 36 games (not including the post season) in a way that prevents kids from going deep into pitch counts. Sure coaches could always schedule less, but that isn't a good look either. With regular season games basically being meaningless if they aren't the 3 or 4 district seed games, there's no reason to play more than 24 or so games. Many states cap the season at 20 or so games. 

Agree with this 100%. It's awesome to play lots of games, but it comes with a cost. Even cutting it to 30 would cut out a game or so a week and help this issue. 

4 hours ago, rjs4470 said:

Part of the issue here in KY are the scheduling rules. Kentucky teams simply play too many games. Many teams, and pretty much all the competitive ones are playing 3 to 4 games every week. And very few have the pitching depth to manage 36 games (not including the post season) in a way that prevents kids from going deep into pitch counts. Sure coaches could always schedule less, but that isn't a good look either. With regular season games basically being meaningless if they aren't the 3 or 4 district seed games, there's no reason to play more than 24 or so games. Many states cap the season at 20 or so games. 

This is a great point. I would love to see the state get down between 26 (Ohio’s cap) and 30.

Not going to defend anything coaches do. Not defending pitch counts. I will say, there's always a few coaches,that make the rest look bad. As far as what's been said so far,i do believe some of these coaches play to many games.I would like to see it go to to 28/30 games max !!! One thing people don't realize,as far as pitch counts, that once these players go play summer/fall ball, there are no pitch counts!!! I ask butch cope about this a few years ago ,as we talked about some things at the state baseball conference . Apparently the khsaa has no say in summer/fall leagues. I do find it ironic that some people complain about pitch counts [throwing too many pitches] but  have their players throwing curve balls at age 10/12 . hmmmmm!!!! I think it would help if the khsaa , and the summer/fall leagues got on the same page. Also,pitch counts can also be dictated by each different player,depending on size and age. My point...."one size doesn't fit all". Just some observations form someone that's been around a little bit....lol!  Cheers gentlemen. Have a good one.

3 minutes ago, k'd looking said:

Not going to defend anything coaches do. Not defending pitch counts. I will say, there's always a few coaches,that make the rest look bad. As far as what's been said so far,i do believe some of these coaches play to many games.I would like to see it go to to 28/30 games max !!! One thing people don't realize,as far as pitch counts, that once these players go play summer/fall ball, there are no pitch counts!!! I ask butch cope about this a few years ago ,as we talked about some things at the state baseball conference . Apparently the khsaa has no say in summer/fall leagues. I do find it ironic that some people complain about pitch counts [throwing too many pitches] but  have their players throwing curve balls at age 10/12 . hmmmmm!!!! I think it would help if the khsaa , and the summer/fall leagues got on the same page. Also,pitch counts can also be dictated by each different player,depending on size and age. My point...."one size doesn't fit all". Just some observations form someone that's been around a little bit....lol!  Cheers gentlemen. Have a good one.

I've never been able to find any solid evidence that curveballs pose a significant threat to young (or old) arms. In fact there are more than a few biomechanics studies that say the opposite. Not to mention the unscientific evidence you see every day of hard throwers at the professional levels being the ones with the most arm trouble. There are so many factors (such as size, fitness, arm strength, etc) that singling out curveballs as the number issue for young (or any arms) is at best misleading. Sliders and maybe split fingers, yes. But in 40+ years of baseball I've never met a curve ball, average fastball pitcher with a sore arm that needed surgery.

 

Yes, the pitch count rule prevents coaches from extreme over use.   I do believe, however, that many high school pitchers are at risk of serious injury well before they get to the max count.  

Several things I hear from coaches fairly often:

"if I stay within pitch count rules, it must be safe or they wouldn't allow that many pitches in one game".  

A variation..."it must be OK to come back and again throw the max on the fourth day, since its allowed".  

"The kid threw the max last time out and didn't hurt his arm.  That tells me the kid is in good enough shape to throw the max again without risk."

Some coaches I guess actually believe it when they say those kinds of things.  Others however, just use them as an excuse to feed their own need to win, knowing full well they are risking a kids arm in what they are doing.  

Even for the most well meaning coaches, the decision whether to pull a kid before he hits the max is not always easy.  A simple question can help..."what would I do if it were my own kid?"

 

 

 

 

Different arena, but same idea....my stepson, who is 12, played in his NKB league last night and the opposing coach allowed his struggling starter to throw 86 pitches in the FIRST INNING. 

Between the complete and utter nonsense in youth baseball and some of the stuff I've seen in the 9th Region this year in terms of ridiculous, obscene single-game overuse...it's amazing there haven't been more injuries or riots at games. The one game I was at this weekend, there were mutiple parents who were furious over a pitcher being left in WAYYYYY too long.

Sad...while it's DEFINITELY not all, there are a great deal of baseball coaches that need to take a long hard look in the mirror and re-evaluate. 

13 hours ago, rjs4470 said:

I've never been able to find any solid evidence that curveballs pose a significant threat to young (or old) arms. In fact there are more than a few biomechanics studies that say the opposite. Not to mention the unscientific evidence you see every day of hard throwers at the professional levels being the ones with the most arm trouble. There are so many factors (such as size, fitness, arm strength, etc) that singling out curveballs as the number issue for young (or any arms) is at best misleading. Sliders and maybe split fingers, yes. But in 40+ years of baseball I've never met a curve ball, average fastball pitcher with a sore arm that needed surgery.

Didn't mean to "single out" curve balls!!! Believe what you want to believe. No problem! My point was ,there to many other things that come into play besides pitch count. Personally , i have coached high school for 20 years. Done it all. Knothole,select,frosh,jv,varsity. head coach at a school. The one thing have had with all the programs i've been with,as far as teaching pitching,we push pitch location [fastball],and teaching a change up that can be thrown for strikes. I get what your saying,but if it's my kid,probably not throwing curves till 13/14 years old. As i said,that is not set in stone.If the kid is bigger,or is more polished,then we go from there.Everyone has their take. i get it!

19 hours ago, BrosefStalin said:

Different arena, but same idea....my stepson, who is 12, played in his NKB league last night and the opposing coach allowed his struggling starter to throw 86 pitches in the FIRST INNING. 

Between the complete and utter nonsense in youth baseball and some of the stuff I've seen in the 9th Region this year in terms of ridiculous, obscene single-game overuse...it's amazing there haven't been more injuries or riots at games. The one game I was at this weekend, there were mutiple parents who were furious over a pitcher being left in WAYYYYY too long.

Sad...while it's DEFINITELY not all, there are a great deal of baseball coaches that need to take a long hard look in the mirror and re-evaluate. 

Go to some of these weekend tournaments.  It's just stupid.  No pitching rules as they rely on coaches to manage their players workload.  10 and 11 year olds throwing over 100 pitches a game or day just to win a $5 ring.  Kids as young as 9 trying to throw curve balls, and just snapping the elbow trying to do so.

I have very strict pitch counts with my teams that I don't sway on.  I manage the workload of my catchers that also pitch.  They don't follow the same pitch counts as my field players do.  To me, it's just not worth risking the health of my players.  I grew up with too many guys that were stud pitchers as kids, but by the time they reach high school, their arms were shot.

 

1 hour ago, nees1212 said:

Go to some of these weekend tournaments.  It's just stupid.  No pitching rules as they rely on coaches to manage their players workload.  10 and 11 year olds throwing over 100 pitches a game or day just to win a $5 ring.  Kids as young as 9 trying to throw curve balls, and just snapping the elbow trying to do so.

I have very strict pitch counts with my teams that I don't sway on.  I manage the workload of my catchers that also pitch.  They don't follow the same pitch counts as my field players do.  To me, it's just not worth risking the health of my players.  I grew up with too many guys that were stud pitchers as kids, but by the time they reach high school, their arms were shot.

 

Totally agree with everything you said. It's gotten ridiculous! Just my opinion,but sometimes i feel , we as adults, don't let kids be kids anymore. A lot of it.... IS parents!!! No reason for 10/12 year old's ,playing 100 games every spring/summer/fall. IMHO!!! ...lol!  I get where your coming from though.

I went to high school with a really good pitcher name Steve Ahlers, there were a couple of times he pitched on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday.  With all that said, he was, and still is, a beast of a man. 

18 minutes ago, theguru said:

I went to high school with a really good pitcher name Steve Ahlers, there were a couple of times he pitched on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday.  With all that said, he was, and still is, a beast of a man. 

My last year of knothole baseball, I pitched every inning of every game for my team. Every Wednesday and Saturday. My arm was a noodle at the end of the year. I actually used an ephus pitch the last few games of the year to give my arm a break. No one ever got a hit off my ephus pitch and man it drove players nuts.?

2 minutes ago, Voice of Reason said:

My last year of knothole baseball, I pitched every inning of every game for my team. Every Wednesday and Saturday. My arm was a noodle at the end of the year. I actually used an ephus pitch the last few games of the year to give my arm a break. No one ever got a hit off my ephus pitch and man it drove players nuts.?

A couple of my knothole teams were the same way until we upgraded our roster by adding some players from the Covington Firefighters team.