9 minutes ago, theguru said:

Is America 195 in deaths per capita?

And while we are at it does anyone die of the flu anymore?

The US is #12 in deaths per 1M. If we look just at countries you have heard of, the US is #6.  Pick any measurement you want and the US is one of the 10 worst in the world at how they have managed COVID. 

On question 2, please explain what you are inferring. I am not sure of your point.

 

Just now, Voice of Reason said:

The US is #12 in deaths per 1M. If we look just at countries you have heard of, the US is #6.  Pick any measurement you want and the US is one of the 10 worst in the world at how they have managed COVID. 

On question 2, please explain what you are inferring. I am not sure of your point.

 

That we can't trust the numbers we have because the books were cooked a long time ago and they continue to be cooked. 

2 minutes ago, theguru said:

That we can't trust the numbers we have because the books were cooked a long time ago and they continue to be cooked. 

 COVID and the flu are both viruses that kill people in pretty much the same way.   People die because their own immune system overreacts and attacks their own body.  Then people die because their body attacked their own organs or the immune system has become weakened and another infection causes death. 

 That gets us into this big debate about what to list on a death certificate.  The actual cause of death is heart failure or pneumonia or some other infection. But the bottom line is those conditions were a direct result of the flu or COVID. In my opinion the cause of death should be listed as flu or COVID because if it had not been for the flu or COVID that person would still be alive.

 This also goes to all the people 80 plus who are dying from COVID. Many people discount those deaths but the fact is those people would still be alive today in the vast majority of the cases if they had not contracted COVID. Cause of death, COVID.

1 hour ago, theguru said:

That we can't trust the numbers we have because the books were cooked a long time ago and they continue to be cooked. 

For those that don't believe numbers, I always apply the 19% rule in honor of COVID-19. We are at 320,000 deaths, so 19% of that is 60,800. Is 60,800 people dying for any reason of concern?

I still don't understand the cooked books theory on who is doing this and why they are doing it. And I am cool with going along with it if we are fine applying the same energy towards other illnesses. So cancer, AIDS, flu, etc. may need to be revisited since people don't actually die of these things, but complications which resulted as of a result of having said diseases.

And as I have said, COVID life does not have to be a choice between a full scale lockdown and pretending nothing exists. In-between can work.

1 minute ago, bugatti said:

For those that don't believe numbers, I always apply the 19% rule in honor of COVID-19. We are at 320,000 deaths, so 19% of that is 60,800. Is 60,800 people dying for any reason of concern?

I still don't understand the cooked books theory on who is doing this and why they are doing it. And I am cool with going along with it if we are fine applying the same energy towards other illnesses. So cancer, AIDS, flu, etc. may need to be revisited since people don't actually die of these things, but complications which resulted as of a result of having said diseases.

On your first, yes, sounds a lot like the flu which other than a 50% effective flu shot we do nothing for.

On your second, I thought there were financial incentives for COVID deaths, is that wrong?

1 minute ago, bugatti said:

And as I have said, COVID life does not have to be a choice between a full scale lockdown and pretending nothing exists. In-between can work.

Right and those end up being rules for thee, not for me. 

9 minutes ago, bugatti said:

And as I have said, COVID life does not have to be a choice between a full scale lockdown and pretending nothing exists. In-between can work.

 In between will work if people will work at respecting and protecting each other. Ignoring the risk and disregarding safety doesn't work and leads to the lockdown.

7 minutes ago, theguru said:

On your first, yes, sounds a lot like the flu which other than a 50% effective flu shot we do nothing for.

On your second, I thought there were financial incentives for COVID deaths, is that wrong?

I wouldn't classify it as "financial incentives." True, if treating a COVID patient, hospitals are set to receive more money. However, the insinuation floating is that this is somehow becoming lucrative for physicians is a stretch. For one, people are putting off elective surgeries. Secondly, the theory would have to support 1,000s of individuals breaking a Hippocratic oath.

8 minutes ago, bugatti said:

I wouldn't classify it as "financial incentives." True, if treating a COVID patient, hospitals are set to receive more money. However, the insinuation floating is that this is somehow becoming lucrative for physicians is a stretch. For one, people are putting off elective surgeries. Secondly, the theory would have to support 1,000s of individuals breaking a Hippocratic oath.

I think this is true.  Hospital reimbursement is going to be bigger if COVID is a contributing cause of death.    COVID is a hugely expensive disease.  Hospitals are trying to recoup as much as they can, but trust me, they are not getting rich from COVID either.  Any hospital's bread and butter is in surgery, which stopped for COVID.  Physicians certainly are not benefitting.  Most are likely losing as well because routine MD visits have been put on hold.

The people getting rich from COVID are makers of PPE and various other hospital supplies and equipment. I am ok with that.  It keeps lots of folks working.

6 minutes ago, bugatti said:

I wouldn't classify it as "financial incentives." True, if treating a COVID patient, hospitals are set to receive more money. However, the insinuation floating is that this is somehow becoming lucrative for physicians is a stretch. For one, people are putting off elective surgeries. Secondly, the theory would have to support 1,000s of individuals breaking a Hippocratic oath.

I am more of a follow the money kind of guy.

Just now, Beechwoodfan said:

I think this is true.  Hospital reimbursement is going to be bigger if COVID is a contributing cause of death.    COVID is a hugely expensive disease.  Hospitals are trying to recoup as much as they can, but trust me, they are not getting rich from COVID either.  Any hospital's bread and butter is in surgery, which stopped for COVID.  Physicians certainly are not benefitting.  Most are likely losing as well because routine MD visits have been put on hold.

Which makes it this is what we have to do to survive financially. 

2 minutes ago, Beechwoodfan said:

I think this is true.  Hospital reimbursement is going to be bigger if COVID is a contributing cause of death.    COVID is a hugely expensive disease.  Hospitals are trying to recoup as much as they can, but trust me, they are not getting rich from COVID either.  Any hospital's bread and butter is in surgery, which stopped for COVID.  Physicians certainly are not benefitting.  Most are likely losing as well because routine MD visits have been put on hold.

 I heard report the other day that COVID is driving a large number of doctors into retirement. 

2 minutes ago, Voice of Reason said:

 I heard report the other day that COVID is driving a large number of doctors into retirement. 

Right, anytime you obstruct/lockdown a part of a system eventually the whole system suffers. 

5 hours ago, bugatti said:

Not sure. But if this has taught us anything, it is that a plan is only as good as those implementing it and those willing to "sacrifice" by following it. As I've noted, America has set the lowest of bars for combating COVID and we are the laughing stock of the world. So I guess my answer would first be to actually coordinate efforts, not paint your own reality, and smile because it is almost impossible for us to do any worse than we have. ?

That's as foolish of a take on Covid as I've seen from the get go. That's Branch Covidian territory. 

The whole testing thing is a joke. 

Just had a friend test positive. Got tested because loss of smell and taste. Yet... two weeks ago took an antibodies test and no Covid footprint was there. 

 

We've tested more then anybody. Can we trust our test results? 

I've been out and about, everywhere (Walmarts, Kroger, Skyline, Home Depot, basketball gyms, baseball fields, everywhere)... Masks are worn everywhere. Yet Covid continues. Sorry, not a believer. 

 

Continue on with your "Americans suck" self deprecation though.

 

Plus, the narrative has been written for every new little virus we have from now on. Masks, shutdowns, distancing. If you work in a food services industry... best be moving on.