Bill or Tom?

[Jumper_Dad]

Which was the most important piece to the Patriots dynasty over the past 20 years?

 

Would Belichek have 6 rings or more if he'd had Rodgers, Manning, Brees or another top QB?

 

Would Tom have 6 rings or more playing for one of the great coaches of the past 20 years?

[DragonFire]

I do not believe either is as great without the other.

 

Bill had two winning seasons without Tom out of seven seasons. And it is worth noting that they started 0-2 with Drew Bledsoe as the starter in the year Tom took over - they lost three games the whole rest of the way. Of course, there's also the 2008 year when Tom tore his ACL and New England went 11-5 anyway with Matt Cassel.

[bugatti]

I always lean more towards players having a greater impact. Much easier to coach and win with Michael Jordan than it is DeAndre Jordan.

 

It was a match made in heaven. Tom and his mentality always bought into the "New England way" and willing to be coached and pushed in a way most QBs are not. There are stories of Belicheck ripping Tom Brady in front of the entire team for his play. It set the tone that Tom was not above anyone else. A guy like Aaron Rodgers would not stand for that which is why I say "no," New England would not have had near the level of success with a different QB.

[TheDeuce]

Which was the most important piece to the Patriots dynasty over the past 20 years?

 

Would Belichek have 6 rings or more if he'd had Rodgers, Manning, Brees or another top QB? (Yes, IMO)

Would Tom have 6 rings or more playing for one of the great coaches of the past 20 years? (No, IMO)

 

They were both a huge part of the dynasty, but I give the edge to Bill because of my answers to these questions.

[Jumper_Dad]

I always lean more towards players having a greater impact. Much easier to coach and win with Michael Jordan than it is DeAndre Jordan.

 

It was a match made in heaven. Tom and his mentality always bought into the "New England way" and willing to be coached and pushed in a way most QBs are not. There are stories of Belicheck ripping Tom Brady in front of the entire team for his play. It set the tone that Tom was not above anyone else. A guy like Aaron Rodgers would not stand for that which is why I say "no," New England would not have had near the level of success with a different QB.

 

You don't think Peyton Manning would have won six in New England?

[Voice of Reason]

I lean towards Bill as more important. I don't think either of them have 6 without each other. Can we look at the 6 seasons, playoffs and Super Bowls and say confidently - the Patriots don't win that one without Brady.

[bugatti]

You don't think Peyton Manning would have won six in New England?

 

I honestly do not. He would have been ultra successful, but there was always an intangible difference between the two. I think Peyton would be the first to tell you as such. Would Manning have gone underpaid his entire career so that you could build a more complete team around him? Manning was the de facto head coach once he was peak Manning. Brady was just wired differently. Again, it was a match made in heaven.

[Jumper_Dad]

I honestly do not. He would have been ultra successful, but there was always an intangible difference between the two. I think Peyton would be the first to tell you as such. Would Manning have gone underpaid his entire career so that you could build a more complete team around him? Manning was the de facto head coach once he was peak Manning. Brady was just wired differently. Again, it was a match made in heaven.

 

In the playoffs, where it really counts Manning had a winning record over Brady.

 

Brady once said that if Aaron Rogers had the institutional knowledge of opposing defenses the way the Patriots do, he'd pass for 7,000 yards. Which leads me to think that even Tom knows it was more the system than him.

[Randy Parker]

Both would be successful and probably both have rings. But I don't think New England would have had the run they've had without both.

 

Equal is my vote.

[bugatti]

In the playoffs, where it really counts Manning had a winning record over Brady.

 

Brady once said that if Aaron Rogers had the institutional knowledge of opposing defenses the way the Patriots do, he'd pass for 7,000 yards. Which leads me to think that even Tom knows it was more the system than him.

 

We can take a little snapshot and dissect it forever. You could also argue Manning wasn't there to get much of a playoff record against Brady appearing in five conference title games to Brady's 11 (I think that is the number). Manning's flame outs have been well-documented. Systems are adjusted to fit QBs. The season before Manning got to Denver, they were read-option. Baltimore is a totally different setup under Jackson. I just don't think NE would have looked the same under Manning than it did with Brady. For purposes of this thread I give credit to Brady, but I am taking nothing away from Belicheck. Just a slight edge to TB12.

 

Rodgers has no way in to this discussion from my vantage. Dude is a documented bad teammate and petulant. You can't have that on a football team and succeed. Aside from his one run, let's not get into his playoff results where he has been mediocre, at best.

[Jumper_Dad]

We can take a little snapshot and dissect it forever. You could also argue Manning wasn't there to get much of a playoff record against Brady appearing in five conference title games to Brady's 11 (I think that is the number). Manning's flame outs have been well-documented. Systems are adjusted to fit QBs. The season before Manning got to Denver, they were read-option. Baltimore is a totally different setup under Jackson. I just don't think NE would have looked the same under Manning than it did with Brady. For purposes of this thread I give credit to Brady, but I am taking nothing away from Belicheck. Just a slight edge to TB12.

 

Rodgers has no way in to this discussion from my vantage. Dude is a documented bad teammate and petulant. You can't have that on a football team and succeed. Aside from his one run, let's not get into his playoff results where he has been mediocre, at best.

 

I mentioned Rodgers only because Brady himself said that Rodgers would have the greatest season in history if he played for New England.

 

You could also argue that playing in the AFC East which nearly guaranteed a first round bye each year was a huge advantage for Brady.

[futurecoach]

I do not believe either is as great without the other.

 

Bill had two winning seasons without Tom out of seven seasons. And it is worth noting that they started 0-2 with Drew Bledsoe as the starter in the year Tom took over - they lost three games the whole rest of the way. Of course, there's also the 2008 year when Tom tore his ACL and New England went 11-5 anyway with Matt Cassel.

 

I know people like to reference the 2008 team. However, as you mentioned Belicheck really as a head coach had done nothing without Brady up to that point, including the first year they won the Super Bowl. They started 0 and 2 that year you stated with one of those losses being to a horrible Bengals team.

 

The 2008 team record without Brady, probably never happens if it wasn’t for Brady. It took Belicheck to have Brady to help develop that Patriot way. It took Brady to help develop that culture of winning. So by 2008 even though Brady got hurt, that winning culture and how to work and win was already established. Not to mention that 2008 team was the very next year after they almost went undefeated. So it is not like Matt Cassell was working with a bunch of scrubs.

 

So I do think they both needed each other. However, it took Belicheck to have Brady to become the Head Coach he is. We will get to find out if Brady really needed Bill though, if Brady goes to Tampa and wins at a high level even at his age. Then that speaks volumes imo.

[futurecoach]

In the playoffs, where it really counts Manning had a winning record over Brady.

 

Brady once said that if Aaron Rogers had the institutional knowledge of opposing defenses the way the Patriots do, he'd pass for 7,000 yards. Which leads me to think that even Tom knows it was more the system than him.

 

To be fair Brady has also always been the opposite say of Lebron James in terms of how he speaks of himself. Brady has always come out and said great things about others and rarely about himself and how his talents lead the way. He is not going to come out and say no chance Rodgers can do what I have done with the Pats lol.

[bugatti]

I mentioned Rodgers only because Brady himself said that Rodgers would have the greatest season in history if he played for New England.

 

You could also argue that playing in the AFC East which nearly guaranteed a first round bye each year was a huge advantage for Brady.

No doubt about that. I have constantly noted how pathetic the AFC East has been. The best QB in Brady's tenure has been Chad Pennington. Think about that.

[tcjkbt]

In the playoffs, where it really counts Manning had a winning record over Brady.

 

Brady once said that if Aaron Rogers had the institutional knowledge of opposing defenses the way the Patriots do, he'd pass for 7,000 yards. Which leads me to think that even Tom knows it was more the system than him.

 

 

 

As an aside, one wonders how much of that "institutional Knowledge" was acquired by nefarious means.

To answer the question, I lean toward the coach.