I do agree alot of Catholic tradition is man made. I think protestant churches do a better job of just sticking to biblical teachings.

 

I think I have a pretty clear view of things. Admittedly, sometimes I have to re-read your "Ultimate Warrior-like" 1-Act Plays in order to respond, but for the most part I understand exactly what you are saying.

 

I think I regret starting this thread. I though it would provoke a nicer discussion. It seems to have had the opposite affect.

 

Don't regret it, you nailed it in your first post.

I do agree alot of Catholic tradition is man made. I think protestant churches do a better job of just sticking to biblical teachings.

 

I think I have a pretty clear view of things. Admittedly, sometimes I have to re-read your "Ultimate Warrior-like" 1-Act Plays in order to respond, but for the most part I understand exactly what you are saying.

 

I think I regret starting this thread. I though it would provoke a nicer discussion. It seems to have had the opposite affect.

 

Don't, I enjoy reading the differences in opinions.......it would be boring as hell if we were all in lock step with one another on issues/stances/beliefs.

 

When it's all said and done, hopefully we can all agree to disagree if we don't see eye to eye and leave it at that......at least I do.

I do agree alot of Catholic tradition is man made. I think protestant churches do a better job of just sticking to biblical teachings.

 

I think I have a pretty clear view of things. Admittedly, sometimes I have to re-read your "Ultimate Warrior-like" 1-Act Plays in order to respond, but for the most part I understand exactly what you are saying.

 

I think I regret starting this thread. I though it would provoke a nicer discussion. It seems to have had the opposite affect.

 

What we do know for certain is that I took probably one the most passive gentle threads regarding the topic and turned it into my personal platform to over-the-top dominate it with some of my more intense feelings on the topic.

 

If I were a third party watching I'd have to say that the gay guy here overreacted especially considering the nature of your original post.

 

I'd have to agree with him.

 

The tone I've created is completely out of sync with your honest intent to be kind about it.

 

If I were a third party I'd probably also think that the gay guy isn't helping his cause no matter how logical he thinks he is because he simply came at you as if you had started a topic that merited his extreme views.

 

But it didn't...

 

Completely wrong thread to be nth degreeing every last intense thought on the matter.

 

The good lord knows that I've approached the topic a time or two. Heck I'm the self appointed gay poster boy here.

 

Aside from my obvious random brushes with the topic it feels like it's been a long time since I really took off to this extreme, and what I need to be completely honest with you about is that it had nothing to do with you starting this thread.

 

It was where my head was a the moment which had been fueled by a lot that's been on my mind lately. Even with the topic always in the news, I even burn out on following every nuance as I really just wished that it were a non issue where nobody felt compelled to talk about it because society had moved on and nobody concerned themselves with it.

 

Perhaps it's headed that way and that I need to be more patient .

 

Though the world is giving me every reason to celebrate its advancements, I've preoccupied much of my recent thinking on examining the history of society and religion regarding it and where it was, and where it's going.

 

By having been doing a lot of thinking about some of the not so pleasant past I found myself feeling upset and putting myself in the place of people who had faced obstacles long before I was born, and feeling their frustration and shaking my head at how things were for people way before they ever had a voice.

 

Because of them slowly finding their voice, by the mid-80's the groundwork had been laid for me to not experience so much drama by the time I had come out.

 

The reality now, and you're a perfect example of it, is that you started a compassionate thread on the topic showing how far the world has come in opening a peaceful discussion on the matter. This wouldn't have happened 50 years ago. That in itself is worth celebrating.

 

No doubt I should've saved the diatribe for a more suitable thread that warranted it.

 

What you got from me in a weird way was me speaking for voiceless people of the 1950's because in their shoes is where I've recently had my head, and at the peak of my preoccupation with those thoughts, yours was the first gay thread to come along at the very time I felt fueled to speak up.

 

Still the completely wrong thread to go off in.

 

What I need to be doing is, and most definitely should have been how I began, is to thank you for starting such a passive peaceful thread that demonstrated how far the world has come. It was completely off base of me to take it where I took it considering where you were coming from. An apology on my part is long in order. I missed the perfect opportunity to celebrate your understanding and compassion, and peaceful intent which demonstrates the more positive approach for the sake of progress.

 

You truly should feel good about starting this tread, and you most definitely were in the right for doing so. I'm just sorry that I let myself tarnish it with my fiery tone where it threw the good intent dramatically off balance.

 

I like what LB said about hopefully we can all agree to disagree if we don't see eye to eye and leave it at that. I have a hunch that you feel the same.

 

As you can see, either if I'm screaming or apologizing I can't manage to get out what I'm trying to say unless I put it into one act play form.

 

I think that I can safely say that I've worn out the topic and just hope that your thread still has the legs to pardon the grand hiccupped direction that I took it in so that maybe somebody else could get a word in edgewise without one of my posts making everybody wear out their scroll key.

This is the most I have ever read of your posts @B-Ball-fan and I am with you 100%. Every single post you made made sense to me and hit home. We are on the same wavelength. :thumb:

This is the most I have ever read of your posts @B-Ball-fan and I am with you 100%. Every single post you made made sense to me and hit home. We are on the same wavelength. :thumb:

 

Thanks

 

What is so absolutely hilarious and ironic about your timing is that I just apologized to PP1 for having severely thread jacked, and how it really was decent of him for having started it, and now you're stepping in to high five me.

 

You know that you're only encouraging me...right? :lol2:

 

 

All kidding aside, that's cool that you dig what I'm saying, and it's cool knowing that someone else understands where I'm coming from. Still It might've better been saved for a different thread, and I could probably use a touch up a little on not having such an in the face tone.

This thread is a microcosm of where we are as a society. I like the "kinder gentler" place we find ourselves. It allows us to hear one another and consider a different view point. I actually liked the honesty of @B-Ball-fan because it lets me see his perspective on the struggle for acceptance that the LGBT community has had. As always, there is validity to this perspective, though it may not capture all that was occurring and carries with it its own biases.

 

As for truth, that is still being sorted out. I disagree with the conclusions B-Ball-Fan has drawn but acknowledge the experiences he has had, both positive and negative from "religion." (Sorry for speaking third person but I am not just addressing one person).

 

We are at a cross roads, of sorts, in our culture. Lots of influences from the past and present are converging and vying for ascendancy. The next 50 years or so will be defined by what eventually claims the minds and hearts of people. If it is a wrong choice it will eventually collapse under its own weight--much like the Soviet Union did--and a lot of people will be hurt--again, much like in the Soviet Union.

 

I hope in this process that individual freedom survives. The only thing that should be used to influence another of "truth" should be persuasion and reason. Present your position as persuasively as you can and allow others to consider it and decide. Compulsion and force should have no part in it.

There's a difference in believing in theistic concepts based on faith, and knowing with certainty a certain truth based on reality.

 

Believing in a god, whether it is truth or not, is a belief, and is not a certain reality.

 

A sexual orientation is not a belief, it is a reality, therefore a truth.

 

To live truthfully within this reality requires no concepts. It's as simple as breathing or eating. It is a reality of the human experience. It is not an opinion.

 

It is created religious concepts that aim to deem it as anything beyond the reality that it is, and in doing so applies an opinion of it leading to subjective reasoning regarding it that requires either an acceptance or rejection of this created concept.

 

Knowing objectively that a sexual orientation is a reality void of concepts or opinions, I naturally reject religion's created concepts regarding this as being simply subjective, and nothing more.

 

I've been told that there is a god. It's not something that I just naturally knew. It requires faith and belief if I were to subscribe to the idea.

 

No one told me that I was gay and neither did I. I just am, and without subjective religious concepts I would have no reason to question it as a right or a wrong.

 

Objective reality is in itself reality.

 

Subjective reality is a byproduct of created concepts.

 

No one told me that I was left-handed, I just am, but there was a time that religion even subjectively regarded that as a sign of the devil.

 

Whereas now most would agree that that was a product of ridiculous unfounded created concepts, some are still lagging in understanding that deeming a sexual orientation as being wrong is also a product of created concepts.

 

My mother is also left handed, and as a child because of religious beliefs, her left hand was tied to her school desk forcing her to write with her right hand. Though she stayed a devout believer and was forgiving of this, she said that she is certain that a large amount of confusion that she had experienced in her life with thinking clearly was caused by this forcing of her to go against her natural tendency to write with her left hand.

 

As a child because of this she formed a stutter that she was eventually able to correct. It also psychologically effected her in creating in her a self doubt that there was something wrong with her that in many respects effected her self confidence throughout her life.

 

I personally deem that as religious child abuse, just as I do religion's insistence to deem a sexual orientation a sin aiming to create in a homosexual a self sense that there is something wrong with them. It is man created conceptual nonsense out of ignorance, misinformation, and fear.

 

Sadly for centuries religion had its followers believe this, and as a result millions of lives were unnecessarily ruined.

 

Sadly religion still tries to have its followers believe this, and thankfully at least it is losing its grip and more and more people are seeing it for what it is and not buying into this ridiculous subjective concept.

 

I trust that you can see that what I speak of is not based on an opinion, but based on an objective reality, and I trust that you can see that a belief in a supreme being is based on faith and subjectivity.

 

The idea of applying a subjective belief towards an objective reality is problematic whereas one is certain while the other is not. I'm content with living within certain reality. I'm not opposed to entertaining the idea of a subjective belief, but if I do I must admit to myself the uncertainty of it.

 

Even if there is a god, this does not automatically suggest that a moral measuring stick can be applied to something as objectively natural as the reality of a sexual orientation. The presence of that measuring stick screams subjective man-made concept as an additional idea placed on top of an already subjective belief in a supreme being.

 

It is not being critical to describe the difference between objectivity and subjectivity. The nature of a subjective religious belief that aims to judge an objective reality is however in itself critical. Reacting to that criticism by making clear the difference might be viewed as critical, but is merely the resistance of the keeper of subjectivity to accept it as such.

 

If you tell me that my face is ugly, and I tell you that it's not your place to tell me that, wouldn't you be the one who is being critical, and me being the one who is pointing out that you are being critical by responding to your criticism by suggesting that it's not your place to criticize?

 

If I tell a believer of religion that it's not their place to judge my objective reality, I am responding to their criticism. Because they don't agree does not make my response critical, it is merely a response to their initial criticism.

 

It's not my aim to criticize anyone for believing in a subjectively reality, but it is my aim to tell those who use that subjective reality as a means to criticize my objective reality that it's not their place to criticize, especially since their beliefs are subjective.

 

Regarding Jesus:

 

I have no way of knowing the complete truth about Jesus, therefore I cannot say with complete certainty just what the truth about Jesus is. I do feel fairly certain from historical accounts that a man named Jesus did indeed exist. Admittedly subjective, Jesus for me is a symbolic representation of human dignity, peace, love, compassion, and understanding. Because he was the central figure in my religious upbringing it stands to reason that I subjectively apply certain meaning in my life regarding him. Aside from the symbolism that he represents to me, he represents my childhood, family, my parents and what I have shared with those close people in my life regarding unconditional and endless love.

 

Couple of things in your post I'd debate. I would highlight them but such a pain on an iPad.

Sexual orientation is not a truth, much like I may find one woman prettier than another does not make it a truth, just a preference.

Also, I don't believe I was born a left hander. I think the fact my dad, mother and brother were all left handed forced me to become a lefty. Even though those darn nuns tried to convert me but I spent too much time with the family.

Couple of things in your post I'd debate. I would highlight them but such a pain on an iPad.

Sexual orientation is not a truth, much like I may find one woman prettier than another does not make it a truth, just a preference.

Also, I don't believe I was born a left hander. I think the fact my dad, mother and brother were all left handed forced me to become a lefty. Even though those darn nuns tried to convert me but I spent too much time with the family.

 

You are proving his point. You don't pick which woman you find pretty, there are just some women that you find prettier than others. If you faced a lifetime of discrimination and hatred and etc over your preference of pretty women......

You are proving his point. You don't pick which woman you find pretty, there are just some women that you find prettier than others. If you faced a lifetime of discrimination and hatred and etc over your preference of pretty women......

 

I was referencing his point on it being a truth. It's a preference and you just helped prove my point.

Thanks

 

What is so absolutely hilarious and ironic about your timing is that I just apologized to PP1 for having severely thread jacked, and how it really was decent of him for having started it, and now you're stepping in to high five me.

 

You know that you're only encouraging me...right? :lol2:

 

 

All kidding aside, that's cool that you dig what I'm saying, and it's cool knowing that someone else understands where I'm coming from. Still It might've better been saved for a different thread, and I could probably use a touch up a little on not having such an in the face tone.

 

It happens. The great part is that it came full circle and the intent of the thread remained pure. The in your face tone caught me off guard a little bit but I understood what you were trying to say and PP1 did a tremendous job of navigating through the conversation. Mainly because we could see he had true and pure intentions for a positive tone.

 

This thread is the type of thread I love to see happen on BGP when folks can agree to disagree and yet still have a productive discussion that affects us all in different ways.

This thread is a microcosm of where we are as a society. I like the "kinder gentler" place we find ourselves. It allows us to hear one another and consider a different view point. I actually liked the honesty of @B-Ball-fan because it lets me see his perspective on the struggle for acceptance that the LGBT community has had. As always, there is validity to this perspective, though it may not capture all that was occurring and carries with it its own biases.

 

As for truth, that is still being sorted out. I disagree with the conclusions B-Ball-Fan has drawn but acknowledge the experiences he has had, both positive and negative from "religion." (Sorry for speaking third person but I am not just addressing one person).

 

We are at a cross roads, of sorts, in our culture. Lots of influences from the past and present are converging and vying for ascendancy. The next 50 years or so will be defined by what eventually claims the minds and hearts of people. If it is a wrong choice it will eventually collapse under its own weight--much like the Soviet Union did--and a lot of people will be hurt--again, much like in the Soviet Union.

 

I hope in this process that individual freedom survives. The only thing that should be used to influence another of "truth" should be persuasion and reason. Present your position as persuasively as you can and allow others to consider it and decide. Compulsion and force should have no part in it.

I love this post, particularly the first and last paragraph. This is what BGP can and should be.

Couple of things in your post I'd debate. I would highlight them but such a pain on an iPad.

Sexual orientation is not a truth, much like I may find one woman prettier than another does not make it a truth, just a preference.

Also, I don't believe I was born a left hander. I think the fact my dad, mother and brother were all left handed forced me to become a lefty. Even though those darn nuns tried to convert me but I spent too much time with the family.

 

The topic of handedness is rather interesting, and I find it intriguing that there are far more right-handed people in the world than left-handed. Why this is would be interesting to know.

 

My left-handed mother raised 6 kids and 2 of us turned out to be left-handed. I don't know what this might prove, if anything.

 

A quick Wiki search says that studies suggest that 87-92% of the world population is right-handed.

 

There are two things that I do that are considered to be right-handed.

 

I play guitar right-handed, but to me it makes sense that my left hand would be my fret hand for the need for dexterity, strength, and precision with forming and changing chords, but aside from that every guitar that was ever available to me in my development were right-handed guitars, but even still I never had the urge to turn them around like Jimi Hendrix did.

 

I can only use right-handed scissors I suppose because right-handed scissors are the only ones that have ever been available to me to the point that's all I had to learn with, and so much that it would be awkward for me to try to now use left-handed scissors.

 

Though I can't deny that such a high percentage of the world is right-handed, I would find it a bizarre notion to suggest that that's what humans are supposed to be, yet roughly 10% of us learned differently or "wrongly" against our "true" right-handed nature.

 

@TAC I'm guessing that we are close in age, and by the time I was going to Catholic grade school I never experienced nuns trying to convert me. Though it was obvious that most everyone else around me was right-handed, I never personally felt any any pressure to "correct" this.

 

When I came to realize that there once was a time that left-handers actually did face pressure related to this, I just thought that it was so strange.

 

Did you personally really have the experience of nuns trying to convert you? Is so, my guess would be that they were really old nuns.

Very old nun. Sister mariancella (sp). 2nd grade teacher.

Very old nun. Sister mariancella (sp). 2nd grade teacher.

Bet you were in the front freakin row though, huh?

Bet you were in the front freakin row though, huh?

 

Probably not becasue I wanted to score those great seats, but becasue she wanted to keep an eye on me so I didn't cause any mischief:whistling: