@B-Ball-fan

Reading your posts, and your discussion on religion. Are you a church going fellow? If so, what denomination are you, if you care to share.

What are those gated communities like? I dont live in one. If standing for morals of the bible makes you a bad person then I guess I'm in the bad boys club. Its better than the club who isn't standing for anything, by standing for everything. no-one is kept out of heaven, you exclude yourself.

 

In the end, here's what I ultimately believe. If Heaven for Christians is angels and pearly gates and heaven for Islamic people is 82 virgins, and the only way one can attain Heaven in either religion is to judge others and make others unhappy or approve of their demise, I'm not cut out for Heaven. I may go to Hell for it, but I will live my life trying to be a good person to all people. To not judge them and make assumptions about their soul or goodness of heart. I'm a sinning human. I have absolutely no business telling another person how to live their lives, nor trying to save their souls. Maybe I'll go to hell. Maybe I won't. But I lived as the best person I could possibly be and be true.

Edited July 4, 201610 yr by Randy Parker

In the end, here's what I ultimately believe. If Heaven for Christians is angels and pearly gates and heaven for Islamic people is 82 virgins, and the only way one can attain Heaven in either religion is to judge others and make others unhappy or approve of their demise, I'm not cut out for Heaven. I may go to Hell for it, but I will live my life trying to be a good person to all people. To not judge them and make assumptions about their soul or goodness of heart. I'm a sinning human. I have absolutely no business telling another person how to live their lives, nor trying to save their souls. Maybe I'll go to hell. Maybe I won't. But I lived as the best person I could possibly be and be true.

 

You try to save souls because you have love for humanity. If you know the truth and the way, you try to help. No judging, it may feel or come acrossed as that but someone may take heed and change. You are called as a christian to help in many ways. I don't want anyone to burn for eternity. Some people are trying their hardest too. Did you not correct your children? Why, because you loved them and wanted to do right and be good people. It's all the same. I've been called out before for my actions, did I like it.. No.. We're they right yes. After I got over my self I seen how they seen me and I was wrong. Sometimes you need that person to help you on your path. My advice.. Get over your self, quit being so sensative and listen. You may or may not learn something. You may or may not save your soul. But to watch you do wrong, be destined for Hell is something I can't do. I don't speak up because I don't care or I'm better, I speak because I do care more than you know. We are suppose to check each other for each others good.

You try to save souls because you have love for humanity. If you know the truth and the way, you try to help. No judging, it may feel or come acrossed as that but someone may take heed and change. You are called as a christian to help in many ways. I don't want anyone to burn for eternity. Some people are trying their hardest too. Did you not correct your children? Why, because you loved them and wanted to do right and be good people. It's all the same. I've been called out before for my actions, did I like it.. No.. We're they right yes. After I got over my self I seen how they seen me and I was wrong. Sometimes you need that person to help you on your path. My advice.. Get over your self, quit being so sensative and listen. You may or may not learn something. You may or may not save your soul. But to watch you do wrong, be destined for Hell is something I can't do. I don't speak up because I don't care or I'm better, I speak because I do care more than you know. We are suppose to check each other for each others good.

 

 

I am saying this with the utmost respect possible: I do not need to "get over myself". I am very well aware of my failings. I am very aware of my humanity. I appreciate your sanctity, your apparent calling to "check" me. But I don't believe you care about me. I believe you do it because you believe it is what proves that you are a Godly person. I can't be saved by you. I can only be saved by Christ. And that will be between myself and Christ, despite any exhortation on your part.

 

I have watched my family be torn apart by people who "found religion" then used their relationship with God to beat theit children, to throw them out of their lives, to cheat on their spouses with others who had "found religion" at the same church. I watch people others present a caring facade to others with false while talking trash about them behind their backs, and then praising God.

 

I am a cradle Catholic. I am not sure I eBen still believe in religion. I have long secretly believed Hell is our time here on Earth. I may be headed to hell. But I wouldn't let it worry you. There is nothing you could do to stop it if I am.

I am saying this with the utmost respect possible: I do not need to "get over myself". I am very well aware of my failings. I am very aware of my humanity. I appreciate your sanctity, your apparent calling to "check" me. But I don't believe you care about me. I believe you do it because you believe it is what proves that you are a Godly person. I can't be saved by you. I can only be saved by Christ. And that will be between myself and Christ, despite any exhortation on your part.

 

I have watched my family be torn apart by people who "found religion" then used their relationship with God to beat theit children, to throw them out of their lives, to cheat on their spouses with others who had "found religion" at the same church. I watch people others present a caring facade to others with false while talking trash about them behind their backs, and then praising God.

 

I am a cradle Catholic. I am not sure I eBen still believe in religion. I have long secretly believed Hell is our time here on Earth. I may be headed to hell. But I wouldn't let it worry you. There is nothing you could do to stop it if I am.

 

Good luck. I truly wouldn't want to be in the way of your ambition. It's a shame you let your faith in man speak for what should be your faith in GOD. Of course it's been rough and you have been disapointed. Mankind will always let you down. Your faith is misplaced. People are evil by nature. Those people were not christians. They pretended to be. For the record I'm not Godly, I'm just a sinner that has been shown the truth. GODSPEED.

Edited July 4, 201610 yr by Fear the Nation

@B-Ball-fan

Reading your posts, and your discussion on religion. Are you a church going fellow? If so, what denomination are you, if you care to share.

 

Wow...you asked me knowing full good and well that I am brevity challenged.

 

Oh well here goes...

 

I was raised Catholic, and other than various occasions such as weddings, funerals, family gatherings, a Xmas Eve Midnight Mass here and there, I have not been a regular attending member since I was about 18.

 

My parents were very much devout strict old school type Catholics, and I had a few priests and nuns relatives on both sides of my family, so there was very much a big time Catholic presence within my upbringing.

 

The Catholic grade school that I attended required us to go to Mass every school day, and then we also had to fulfill the Sunday holy day of obligation either on Sunday Morning, or the Saturday night Mass would count, so during the school year until the 8th grade we attended Mass 6 days a week not counting a handful of other required liturgical celebrations throughout the year like 40 Hours Devotion, May Crowning, Holy Thursday, Good Friday and other various Holy Days of obligation.

 

As a kid I was very much involved with special masses where I did the readings or participated in other various celebratory activities.

 

Since it was a huge portion of my childhood I don't regret my Catholic experience as I do have many good memories related to it. Since I've always liked to sing, learning and singing church songs was something that made me eager to attend and was the main thing for me that made it bearable to attend every day.

 

At age 11 a deacon came to our school to speak to us about vocations and how some people marry, and some remain single, while others are called into holy orders to be priests, nuns, deacons, brothers and so on...

 

Down deep I already knew that I was gay, so I raised my hand and asked him how one would know if they were being called to holy orders, and he said that God would give a sign and that you would just know, which at the time made me nervous because knowing that I would never marry I thought that God was really calling me to be a priest, and that evening over dinner with my parents I began to cry, and they asked what was wrong, and I told them that I thought that I was being called to be a priest, and they thought that this was wonderful. Exact first words from Mom, "That's Wonderful!!!"

 

I told them that it bothered me because I really didn't want to be a priest, and they told me to continue to pray on it, and that maybe one day it wouldn't sound like such a heavy decision to make, and that everything would fall into place.

 

Though I didn't officially come out to them until I was 20, looking back, in a way I suppose that I sorta did when I was 11. I think that they made the connection because when I did come out to them they brought it back up to me what I had told them when I was 11, and though they never said to me that they suspected that I might be gay, something about their initial reaction told me that they somehow already knew.

 

Years later I also came to realize that what I was experiencing was not too uncommon with young confused gay Catholics, and though I put the idea to rest, many others followed through because they either seriously felt called, while it would also help them save face with their families for never marrying, because this way they could explain that they were called to be a priest. This of course was before anyone would make the assumption that this automatically meant that they were gay.

 

Probably thinking that they were the only ones, they entered the seminary at the height of their hopping hormones, and there you have it. Many of their first experiences, that in their confused minds thought that their desires would miraculously disappear with ordination, and felt it too late to back out on what their entire family had been applauding them for.

 

Pressure, confusion, religion, deception etc...

 

I can barely imagine what would've made a straight young Catholic male think that he was being called to be a priest.

 

Though a shock to many, I instantly identified when I came to realize that there were so many gay priest. It made perfect sense. Though I understood, I did experience a bit of resentment after being raised with the notion that somehow priests and nuns were perfect and almost God-like somehow.

 

Of course not all gay priest are sexually active, but no matter what I would venture to say a high percentage of them went into the seminary with the sincere idea of becoming a priest with no intentions to purposefully deceive anyone. They just went through their own confusing journey being raised devout Catholics and trying to sort out their reality within the constraints of it all. I'd say that for many of them it was the avenue that they seriously felt called to take, or at least was confused enough by their circumstances to consider.

 

Eager to live honestly without the double life syndrome of either being a sexually active priest or faking a straight marriage, I'm really glad that I pursued just being who I am without the added stress of all that other life draining nonsense.

 

I've known many gay Catholics who have suffered what it referred to as Catholic Guilt, but all in all I seemed to have gotten through the experience unscathed.

 

Though I had been heavily exposed to Catholicism, throughout the years I continued to do a lot of thinking on my own, and though I do not know the ultimate truth, I was able to decide for myself that I didn't need to continue to live my life under the direction of religion, and was able to escape the guilt and fear of eternal damnation for backing away.

 

I don't particularly like to live by a label, but the best that I can describe where I'm at would more or less be an Existentialist/Realist/Agnostic/Spriitualist. I don't really subscribe to any philosophy other than just what I have come to within my own individual thinking. Regarding human behavior I do think that there is a tremendous amount of merit with B.F. Skinner's philosophy. I can't draw any concrete conclusions about an afterlife or a god other than accepting the fact that I can't as being a real facet of my human limitations, but I don't discount the possibility.

 

Because I didn't raise children I've never felt compelled to subscribe to anything in particular for the sake of believably exposing offspring to religious concepts. I think that as a parent it could be rather difficult with how to approach this especially if you have questions of your own. Whether or not my parents had questions I would've never known it because it was important to them that they display to their children a steadfast belief in the teachings of the Catholic faith. I've noticed that my married with children friends have been more inclined to keep hold of their Catholic beliefs while most of my single friends have not.

I'm thinking Hell is going to be a lot more crowded than Heaven. I suppose it's like those NKY gated communities...lots of walls to keep people out.

 

Are those NKY gated communities somehow different from the ones in Louisville? :lol2:

@B-Ball-fan It sounds like you have more of a disdain towards religion but not necessarily Jesus. Would that be accurate.

 

Also, and I mean this respectfully, you continually say things like "Truth is Truth" and "Reality is reality" but really these are just your opinions based on life experience. Naturally you think that what you believe is the truth, so do I. But you have to recognize that your posts are based on what you believe and you can't criticize others for doing the same thing.

@B-Ball-fan It sounds like you have more of a disdain towards religion but not necessarily Jesus. Would that be accurate.

 

Also, and I mean this respectfully, you continually say things like "Truth is Truth" and "Reality is reality" but really these are just your opinions based on life experience. Naturally you think that what you believe is the truth, so do I. But you have to recognize that your posts are based on what you believe and you can't criticize others for doing the same thing.

 

There's a difference in believing in theistic concepts based on faith, and knowing with certainty a certain truth based on reality.

 

Believing in a god, whether it is truth or not, is a belief, and is not a certain reality.

 

A sexual orientation is not a belief, it is a reality, therefore a truth.

 

To live truthfully within this reality requires no concepts. It's as simple as breathing or eating. It is a reality of the human experience. It is not an opinion.

 

It is created religious concepts that aim to deem it as anything beyond the reality that it is, and in doing so applies an opinion of it leading to subjective reasoning regarding it that requires either an acceptance or rejection of this created concept.

 

Knowing objectively that a sexual orientation is a reality void of concepts or opinions, I naturally reject religion's created concepts regarding this as being simply subjective, and nothing more.

 

I've been told that there is a god. It's not something that I just naturally knew. It requires faith and belief if I were to subscribe to the idea.

 

No one told me that I was gay and neither did I. I just am, and without subjective religious concepts I would have no reason to question it as a right or a wrong.

 

Objective reality is in itself reality.

 

Subjective reality is a byproduct of created concepts.

 

No one told me that I was left-handed, I just am, but there was a time that religion even subjectively regarded that as a sign of the devil.

 

Whereas now most would agree that that was a product of ridiculous unfounded created concepts, some are still lagging in understanding that deeming a sexual orientation as being wrong is also a product of created concepts.

 

My mother is also left handed, and as a child because of religious beliefs, her left hand was tied to her school desk forcing her to write with her right hand. Though she stayed a devout believer and was forgiving of this, she said that she is certain that a large amount of confusion that she had experienced in her life with thinking clearly was caused by this forcing of her to go against her natural tendency to write with her left hand.

 

As a child because of this she formed a stutter that she was eventually able to correct. It also psychologically effected her in creating in her a self doubt that there was something wrong with her that in many respects effected her self confidence throughout her life.

 

I personally deem that as religious child abuse, just as I do religion's insistence to deem a sexual orientation a sin aiming to create in a homosexual a self sense that there is something wrong with them. It is man created conceptual nonsense out of ignorance, misinformation, and fear.

 

Sadly for centuries religion had its followers believe this, and as a result millions of lives were unnecessarily ruined.

 

Sadly religion still tries to have its followers believe this, and thankfully at least it is losing its grip and more and more people are seeing it for what it is and not buying into this ridiculous subjective concept.

 

I trust that you can see that what I speak of is not based on an opinion, but based on an objective reality, and I trust that you can see that a belief in a supreme being is based on faith and subjectivity.

 

The idea of applying a subjective belief towards an objective reality is problematic whereas one is certain while the other is not. I'm content with living within certain reality. I'm not opposed to entertaining the idea of a subjective belief, but if I do I must admit to myself the uncertainty of it.

 

Even if there is a god, this does not automatically suggest that a moral measuring stick can be applied to something as objectively natural as the reality of a sexual orientation. The presence of that measuring stick screams subjective man-made concept as an additional idea placed on top of an already subjective belief in a supreme being.

 

It is not being critical to describe the difference between objectivity and subjectivity. The nature of a subjective religious belief that aims to judge an objective reality is however in itself critical. Reacting to that criticism by making clear the difference might be viewed as critical, but is merely the resistance of the keeper of subjectivity to accept it as such.

 

If you tell me that my face is ugly, and I tell you that it's not your place to tell me that, wouldn't you be the one who is being critical, and me being the one who is pointing out that you are being critical by responding to your criticism by suggesting that it's not your place to criticize?

 

If I tell a believer of religion that it's not their place to judge my objective reality, I am responding to their criticism. Because they don't agree does not make my response critical, it is merely a response to their initial criticism.

 

It's not my aim to criticize anyone for believing in a subjectively reality, but it is my aim to tell those who use that subjective reality as a means to criticize my objective reality that it's not their place to criticize, especially since their beliefs are subjective.

 

Regarding Jesus:

 

I have no way of knowing the complete truth about Jesus, therefore I cannot say with complete certainty just what the truth about Jesus is. I do feel fairly certain from historical accounts that a man named Jesus did indeed exist. Admittedly subjective, Jesus for me is a symbolic representation of human dignity, peace, love, compassion, and understanding. Because he was the central figure in my religious upbringing it stands to reason that I subjectively apply certain meaning in my life regarding him. Aside from the symbolism that he represents to me, he represents my childhood, family, my parents and what I have shared with those close people in my life regarding unconditional and endless love.

@B-Ball-fan I do not think you can say that you have your own objective reality. And considering the fact that you have had negative experiences with the church, I think it is safe to say your reality is completely subjective, you just compared the treatment of homosexuals with the treatment of left-handed people.

 

It is an objective truth the homosexuality exists. But the antecedent is by no means objective. Some people believe it is biological, some psychological, and some sociological. Personally, I believe it is a combination of all three. Which means that the absence of one, would negate the evolution of it.

 

But I cannot say that that is my own personal objective reality and yours can differ. Its either true or not. You give us your opinions that are based on your experience and maybe study. I give my opinions that are based on my own experience and study.

 

But back to the whole list thing. I would hope that Christians around the country can exercise love and respect to people that live their lives differently. There is no place for hate. I believe what I believe and I know why I believe it. But what is so great about this country is that I am allowed to believe what I want and so are people like @B-Ball-fan.

Well.......this has been an interesting read.

 

@B-Ball-fan I haven't forgotten about our get together to discuss music, sports, & now religion. :lol2:

Well.......this has been an interesting read.

 

@B-Ball-fan I haven't forgotten about our get together to discuss music, sports, & now religion. :lol2:

:wave:

Regarding the initial post:

 

I have said a bunch in many of the threads, Religious folk don't form beliefs based on their religion, they form religion based on their beliefs.

 

The initial post is a great example of this.

 

Jesus said nothing about gay people. I mean, if you believe, you believe Jesus is the son of God and he came to earth with a message to deliver, and that message is recorded in the Bible which is a book that has been written with Divine guidance. And in the book, Jesus says nothing about gay people.

 

But people have opinions about gay people, so we get people literally making stuff up about "what Jesus would say to gay people." And in a development that should shock absolutely no one, when people make stuff up for Jesus to say, the stuff they make up for him to say just happens to be entirely consistent with their beliefs.

 

And if you don't agree, well, ....a pox on you because you are disagreeing with someone who simply makes up beliefs about a god who agrees with them, so you essentially end up disagreeing with their version of god.

 

I don't agree with you on a lot of things MF but I am with you on this one. I have come full circle on the whole gay issue thing. I used to think it was a choice but do not believe that now. I am much more of a "as long as it does not affect me and does not hurt others, I don't care what you do" guy now. I also am much less tolerant of organized religions now than I used to be. I consider myself Christian but have been appalled how the Catholic Church handled the priest scandals (molesting kids). I see people killing others (including gay people) in the name of Islam every day it seems...ugh...

@B-Ball-fan I do not think you can say that you have your own objective reality. And considering the fact that you have had negative experiences with the church, I think it is safe to say your reality is completely subjective, you just compared the treatment of homosexuals with the treatment of left-handed people.

 

It is an objective truth the homosexuality exists. But the antecedent is by no means objective. Some people believe it is biological, some psychological, and some sociological. Personally, I believe it is a combination of all three. Which means that the absence of one, would negate the evolution of it.

 

But I cannot say that that is my own personal objective reality and yours can differ. Its either true or not. You give us your opinions that are based on your experience and maybe study. I give my opinions that are based on my own experience and study.

 

But back to the whole list thing. I would hope that Christians around the country can exercise love and respect to people that live their lives differently. There is no place for hate. I believe what I believe and I know why I believe it. But what is so great about this country is that I am allowed to believe what I want and so are people like @B-Ball-fan.

 

Personally I don't really much consider my personal experience with being raised Catholic as being a negative one. I didn't have a whole lot of choice growing up because it was the decision of my parents that I be raised with it and they did so because it's what they believed in, and they believed that it would be the proper guidance for me.

 

I'm actually glad the I was exposed to it so that I could see first hand just what it is so that I could make a rational decision for myself if it was something that I saw as valid for my life.

 

I didn't back away from it because of its stance on homosexuality, I backed away because it was apparent to me that organized religion is subjectively irrational. Not one iota of anything that I was indoctrinated with is provable, whereas I can say with certainty that most everything about it, if not all, is man-made, and a huge portion was just painfully and almost laughably illogical.

 

A great example of this would be when children with very straightforward logical questions would have those questions answered by their elders who frustratingly were obviously making stuff up to or just puppeting the myths that they were taught all for the sake of continuing the illusion that they had believable answers and that if the children knew what was best for them they would simply just believe it too, and if they didn't they would feel ostracized. Whether or not kids actually bought it, the last thing they wanted was to be ostracized, so after repetitive instruction to believe that which they must take on faith and buy it as fact, little by little it becomes ingrained it them for them to grow up and continue the chain with their own children.

 

Me being gay was a great asset to me to first hand see where religion was misguided regarding that topic which was painfully obvious, and though I never truly deep down believed much about religion on the whole, it made things much easier on myself to over time begin to start checking teachings off the list and categorizing them into the myth pile.

 

Humanity has a long understandable history with a quest for the ultimate truth. Religion is an example of humans creating concepts in an attempt to answer those questions and then subscribing to them, and encouraging and often times demanding others to as well.

 

Man has also a long history with not being able to accept his own limitations, and as a result through vanity and a desire to bring order to his life, he has settled for religion's created concepts as his answers to his questions.

 

I too have a quest to know the ultimate truth, and consider myself to be on a personal spiritual journey of my own.

 

I don't base it on any specific concepts, so therefore I also have no concept to offer to indoctrinate others. I am bound to its subjective nature for lack of objective evidence.

 

I cannot denounce the existence of a god, therefore I'm not opposed to subjectively entertaining the idea of one as we all are born with the same obstacle of not being provided a complete solid understanding of the existence of our universe and our existence within it. That lack of knowledge for many can lend its hand to wonderment, so not knowing the ultimate truth and being bound by my human limitations, I am at the mercy of where my mind can wonder, and since humanity has never been able be conclusive with regard to this, I have to accept my limitations however frustrating that may be, but I have accepted that.

 

The simplicity of my subjective spiritual journey is far more attractive to me than the overload of clutter of subjectivity, and many times obvious illogical man-made concepts within organized religion. I don't know where my journey leads me and neither do you, but I do know that mine is about as logical and rational as I can possibly be all the while by the end of the day still having to admit my limitations, and lack of knowledge. At least with mine I am not faced with the daunting task of just taking on faith all of the man-made concepts that have been passed along as fact by religion. The fact that religion can't even admit its own limitations and acts as if it is the keeper of the non disputable truth tells me that it is not honestly facing reality.

 

To me truth is simple and the overload of man and religion's concepts is what confuses and clouds us and pulls us further and further away from that simplicity.

 

I must admit that it's mind boggling that the correlation of religion's reaction to left-handedness and homosexuality that I was making is something that you completely did not understand. I was displaying how in hindsight we can now plainly see where something as natural as left handedness was viewed by Christianity as being a sign of the devil was undoubtedly misguided, and homosexuality being a largely for centuries misunderstood natural orientation that is simply a very real part of the human experience is still to this day denounced by Christianity.

 

I didn't choose to be left handed anymore than I chose to be gay. Because most of the world is right handed, religion somehow could not understand that some people are left handed and instead of seeing that as natural they deemed it wrong. If I had lived years ago I would have been persecuted for having been left handed, and for something that came completely naturally to me by no choice.

 

I was hoping that you could see with vision that misunderstanding and fear had spawned religion's reaction to left handedness, just as it has with homosexuality. Someone in the position of leadership I would hope must as least have some sense of being a visionary. If that's not your forte' I'll do it for you...

 

Years from now people, and even religion will view homosexuality as a non-chosen normal natural facet of human sexuality just as people and religion now no longer view left handedness as the sign of the devil. With regard to that, people and religion have managed to move forward in its thinking.

 

I am gay. It wasn't a choice, decision, and it's not an opinion. I am naturally sexually attracted to men. I am not sexually attracted to women. There are millions just like me. There have been millions just like me for centuries.

 

This is a reality and there's nothing subjective about it. It is a completely natural facet within humanity. Though same sex encounters cannot spawn life, it is still as real a non chosen sexuality just as heterosexuality is. Straights didn't choose to be straight, gays didn't choose to be gay, they just are.

 

Now if you want to say that acting on one's sexuality is a sin then you must be able to honestly realize that that is a subjective opinion, and since it denies reality and nature it sits firmly on the side of subjectivity, where realty and nature sits firmly on the side of objectivity. It's not subjective of me to state the complete undeniable fact that I am gay. Even if I didn't want to be gay, I am still gay. It's a reality. It's a fact. It's a truth. It's not subjective. Deeming it as wrong is subjective, and painfully a sign that one completely does not understand it.

 

Please at least tell me that you understand that you didn't choose to be straight.

 

Do you think that it would at all ridiculous if I told you that you saying that you are straight is you being completely subjective? I would hope that you do see it as ridiculous just as I see you saying that me being gay is subjective. It's a reality and I'm being completely objective about that. It's not an opinion, and just because within your subjective thinking you consider it wrong is such a ridiculous reason for me or anyone who is gay to abstain from their own nature.

I do agree alot of Catholic tradition is man made. I think protestant churches do a better job of just sticking to biblical teachings.

 

I think I have a pretty clear view of things. Admittedly, sometimes I have to re-read your "Ultimate Warrior-like" 1-Act Plays in order to respond, but for the most part I understand exactly what you are saying.

 

I think I regret starting this thread. I though it would provoke a nicer discussion. It seems to have had the opposite affect.

Edited July 5, 201610 yr by PP1