So, what's the takeway here from those of you expressing angst over this number?

 

Sounds like its "get these lazy people working so they can pay taxes so the government can collect more money and then dismantle everything the government spends money on." Did I get it right?

Many of those folks in the 45% are working. My wife and I both work. We have two kids for which we receive child tax credits and two for which we receive education credits.

 

Those credits wipe out our federal income tax obligation.

 

Personally I'd rather have a national sales tax to replace the income tax. But politicians (primarily liberal) would eventually start taxing income again...just the rich folks at first....and then all of us.

 

So there's really no point.

You remind me of my kids when they had no argument and were caught trying to divert the conversation rather than simply admitting they were wrong. The good old "but he did it too" excuse. Of course they outgrew that at about twelve.

 

Huh? Whatever. You are right, I am totally wrong. Carry on with your life, it was my mistake to attempt to engage you directly, it won't happen again. Take care!

Takeaway ? -- not enough people by % paying something. The attitude that bringing the topic up is a micro-aggression is nearly as idiotic as zit faced teens on college campuses crying for whatever the latest hop topic is . The bottom line is we are 19 Trillion in debt , and unless you are an ____ , I'll say uninformed , debt matters . Our infrastructure is horrific , our military is depleted and moral is awful, and we do a awful job of caring for the most vulnerable in our society ( elderly and truly disabled ) and too large a chunk of the 45 % are truly lazy and nothing more than leeches on the big govt tit . Now what % of the 43 % is robbing the system ? I'm not sure , but I could name dozens in my own personal circle . It's my disdain for those robbing the system that causes the system not to be able to help those who need it that infuriate me . It may earth shaking news to a few on here but conservatives do care about people .

To those that are working and fall in the 45 % -- I've got ZERO problem with that .

One of these two things would radically change the public's voting patterns.

1) Change "Tax Day" from April 15 to the day after Election Day.

2) Instead of employers being the tax collector for the government, require each individual to write a check/money order every month/quarter to the government.

This number has been used, going back to Romney’s famous remark, to rationalize that about half the country are slaves to government handouts and, in Romney’s case, to further complain that these people will not vote for a Republican (which makes very little sense and is why, in part, he made these comments in private to a very specific audience). The number is used to impugn these people as good-for-nothing deadbeats when the reality is that almost all of them are working (or are retirees), most probably have kids and own homes, and would otherwise comprise much of the working and lower-middle class (and I wonder how many of these Kentuckians voted for Romney over Obama in 2012?).

 

The question I have for those lamenting this structure is which tax deductions and tax credits do you propose to eliminate? According to Turbo Tax, the biggest tax credits available to most Americans are the EITC (designed to offset payroll taxes, which requires that you be working), continuing education credits, dependent child credits, and retirement savings credits. Possible tax deductions are too numerous to cover, but include those for paying a mortgage, being married, having a kid, paying for education, donating to charity, medical expenses, business expenses, etc.

 

Many (most?) of these deductions and credits have been supported by Republican politicians. No, I’m not pointing fingers here, but lessening Americans’ tax burdens has been part of the Republican economic orthodoxy for decades. The logic from these politicians has been that if people didn’t have to pay so much in taxes they could spend it on productive things that would stimulate the economy. And if we are going to give a big tax cut to the highest earners, we need to give a nice one to the lower classes too, and if you don’t make a lot of money then maybe a slightly lower tax rate won’t register with you as much, so here’re some tax credits to help out instead.

 

Those infuriated by the deadbeat 45-7% are in the tenuous position of arguing for a tax hike on almost half of the citizenry, especially on the working and middle-classes (this did not seem very popular here in the thread on Sander's tax plan), while simultaneously supporting candidates who are proposing dramatic tax cuts across the board (even Cruz’s flat tax plan provides a threshold to keep people from paying taxes through deductions and tax credits up to a certain income level). So, I’m not convinced those incensed are hoping to see taxes raised through the elimination of deductions and credits, but instead use the numbers for some good old fashioned political mudslinging, even if it really isn't connected to reality.

This number has been used, going back to Romney’s famous remark, to rationalize that about half the country are slaves to government handouts and, in Romney’s case, to further complain that these people will not vote for a Republican (which makes very little sense and is why, in part, he made these comments in private to a very specific audience). The number is used to impugn these people as good-for-nothing deadbeats when the reality is that almost all of them are working, most probably have kids and own homes, and would otherwise comprise much of the working and lower-middle class (and I wonder how many of these Kentuckians voted for Romney over Obama in 2012?).

 

The question I have for those lamenting this structure is which tax deductions and tax credits do you propose to eliminate? According to Turbo Tax, the biggest tax credits available to most Americans are the EITC (designed to offset payroll taxes, which requires that you be working), continuing education credits, dependent child credits, and retirement savings credits. Possible tax deductions are too numerous to cover, but include those for paying a mortgage, being married, having a kid, paying for education, donating to charity, medical expenses, business expenses, etc.

 

Many (most?) of these deductions and credits have been supported by Republican politicians. No, I’m not pointing fingers here, but lessening Americans’ tax burdens has been part of the Republican economic orthodoxy for decades. The logic from these politicians has been that if people didn’t have to pay so much in taxes they could spend it on productive things that would stimulate the economy. And if we are going to give a big tax cut to the highest earners, we need to give a nice one to the lower classes too, and if you don’t make a lot of money then maybe a slightly lower tax rate won’t register with you as much, so here’re some tax credits to help out instead.

 

Those infuriated by the deadbeat 45-7% are in the tenuous position of arguing for a tax hike on almost half of the citizenry, especially on the working and middle-classes (this did not seem very popular here in the thread on Sanders tax plan), while simultaneously supporting candidates who are proposing dramatic tax cuts across the board (even Cruz’s flat tax plan provides a threshold to keep people from paying taxes through deductions and tax credits up to a certain income level). So, I’m not convinced those incensed are hoping to see taxes raised through the elimination of deductions and credits, but instead use the numbers for some good old fashioned political mudslinging, even if it really isn't connected to reality.

 

Agree wholeheartedly.

This number has been used, going back to Romney’s famous remark, to rationalize that about half the country are slaves to government handouts and, in Romney’s case, to further complain that these people will not vote for a Republican (which makes very little sense and is why, in part, he made these comments in private to a very specific audience). The number is used to impugn these people as good-for-nothing deadbeats when the reality is that almost all of them are working (or are retirees), most probably have kids and own homes, and would otherwise comprise much of the working and lower-middle class (and I wonder how many of these Kentuckians voted for Romney over Obama in 2012?).

 

The question I have for those lamenting this structure is which tax deductions and tax credits do you propose to eliminate? According to Turbo Tax, the biggest tax credits available to most Americans are the EITC (designed to offset payroll taxes, which requires that you be working), continuing education credits, dependent child credits, and retirement savings credits. Possible tax deductions are too numerous to cover, but include those for paying a mortgage, being married, having a kid, paying for education, donating to charity, medical expenses, business expenses, etc.

 

Many (most?) of these deductions and credits have been supported by Republican politicians. No, I’m not pointing fingers here, but lessening Americans’ tax burdens has been part of the Republican economic orthodoxy for decades. The logic from these politicians has been that if people didn’t have to pay so much in taxes they could spend it on productive things that would stimulate the economy. And if we are going to give a big tax cut to the highest earners, we need to give a nice one to the lower classes too, and if you don’t make a lot of money then maybe a slightly lower tax rate won’t register with you as much, so here’re some tax credits to help out instead.

 

Those infuriated by the deadbeat 45-7% are in the tenuous position of arguing for a tax hike on almost half of the citizenry, especially on the working and middle-classes (this did not seem very popular here in the thread on Sander's tax plan), while simultaneously supporting candidates who are proposing dramatic tax cuts across the board (even Cruz’s flat tax plan provides a threshold to keep people from paying taxes through deductions and tax credits up to a certain income level). So, I’m not convinced those incensed are hoping to see taxes raised through the elimination of deductions and credits, but instead use the numbers for some good old fashioned political mudslinging, even if it really isn't connected to reality.

 

Like post 35 makes sense but it ignores the reality of that 45 percent. But as you point out, perhaps better than I did, that the 45 percent is comprised mostly of working people. So if we are not out to just pick on the working poor, then what is all the hubbub about? Do they want to raise taxes on people who work but yet remain at poverty levels? The whole thing makes no sense unless you just chalk it up to people want to get themselves riled up by complaining about lazy freeloaders.

Takeaway ? -- not enough people by % paying something. The attitude that bringing the topic up is a micro-aggression is nearly as idiotic as zit faced teens on college campuses crying for whatever the latest hop topic is . The bottom line is we are 19 Trillion in debt , and unless you are an ____ , I'll say uninformed , debt matters . Our infrastructure is horrific , our military is depleted and moral is awful, and we do a awful job of caring for the most vulnerable in our society ( elderly and truly disabled ) and too large a chunk of the 45 % are truly lazy and nothing more than leeches on the big govt tit . Now what % of the 43 % is robbing the system ? I'm not sure , but I could name dozens in my own personal circle . It's my disdain for those robbing the system that causes the system not to be able to help those who need it that infuriate me . It may earth shaking news to a few on here but conservatives do care about people .

 

Here are some better targets to go after instead of the working poor.

 

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/06/us-companies-holding-21-trillion-offshore-profits.html

One of these two things would radically change the public's voting patterns.

1) Change "Tax Day" from April 15 to the day after Election Day.

2) Instead of employers being the tax collector for the government, require each individual to write a check/money order every month/quarter to the government.

 

As for #2, you'd need to bring back debtor prisons. I'd be jailed before I could figure out how to hold onto that $.

A lot of people know exactly how much they can make in a tax year and will quit their job, miss work due to "illness", etc. to qualify for the maximum of earned income tax credit.

A lot of people know exactly how much they can make in a tax year and will quit their job, miss work due to "illness", etc. to qualify for the maximum of earned income tax credit.

 

 

You know what something like this statement tells me? It tells me you've never been so poor you didn't earn enough to pay FIT. Because those who are working and poor don't have time to figure out such a complicated scheme. They're trying to work themselves the hell out of such dire straits. Because, you see...it ain't all fun and games. All that free crap y'all harp about? it ain't reality for most. And all those food stamps people are lying and scheming to get? Well, those keep getting reduced.

 

I used to try to reason and rationalize that it wasn't the fault of the people who throw out rash generalizations. I used to think that if they only knew, they'd see things a little differently. Well, crap on that. The horse has died a thousand deaths from it's interminable flogging.

 

Maybe I'm the lucky one...one that's been at the bottom and climbed out of it. Maybe because I was at the bottom for so damn long, and I live in fear of going back there, that I understand what hell it actually is, instead of the freaking paradise it's presented to be on BGP. Because, but for the Grace of God, there are more people in this country one step away from such a fate, than there are immune from it.

You know what something like this statement tells me? It tells me you've never been so poor you didn't earn enough to pay FIT. Because those who are working and poor don't have time to figure out such a complicated scheme. They're trying to work themselves the hell out of such dire straits. Because, you see...it ain't all fun and games. All that free crap y'all harp about? it ain't reality for most. And all those food stamps people are lying and scheming to get? Well, those keep getting reduced.

 

I used to try to reason and rationalize that it wasn't the fault of the people who throw out rash generalizations. I used to think that if they only knew, they'd see things a little differently. Well, crap on that. The horse has died a thousand deaths from it's interminable flogging.

 

Maybe I'm the lucky one...one that's been at the bottom and climbed out of it. Maybe because I was at the bottom for so damn long, and I live in fear of going back there, that I understand what hell it actually is, instead of the freaking paradise it's presented to be on BGP. Because, but for the Grace of God, there are more people in this country one step away from such a fate, than there are immune from it.

 

I knew someone would blast me for saying that, but I know for a fact that it happens, but just because some play the system doesn't make it a bad program, it like many other programs need to be policed better so that the people who really need it are able to continue receiving it.

 

I assure you that I grew up pretty poor, at least by US standards. We had 7 in my family and we lived down on 2nd Street in Louisville in a 2 bedroom shotgun style house in my younger days.

I knew someone would blast me for saying that, but I know for a fact that it happens, but just because some play the system doesn't make it a bad program, it like many other programs need to be policed better so that the people who really need it are able to continue receiving it.

 

I assure you that I grew up pretty poor, at least by US standards. We had 7 in my family and we lived down on 2nd Street in Louisville in a 2 bedroom shotgun style house in my younger days.

 

It may happen, but it's not the norm.

 

And I grew up pretty poor also, over by Churchill Downs on Oleanda, family of five. My dad never made $25K/year. I was in pretty decent shape while I was married, but the bottom fell out of that and I was a single mom with 2 kids (one receiving specialized medical care). I then found myself even poorer than I thought possible.

 

It took more than 12 years to completely leave behind my status as one of the 45%. It took working 2 jobs pretty much for the entirety of those dozen years. Then, I was on the lowest rung of middle class, and I worked a second job to put my kids through high school. After 18 years of working 2nd jobs, I was finally able to stop, and had made it up the ladder enough to be considered sort of middle class. After another 6, i'm solidly middle class.

 

But I will never be far enough removed from the worst of my days to make a broad generalization about why people need help. If everyone I had encountered in my life felt the same as people here on BGP, my butt would still be mired in that mess of a life. Most of my family is still in poverty. And some of them sometimes infuriate me because they've given up. But then I step back and remember what it's like to be in that situation. I don't know what kept spurring me on, but I sure as heck remember all the days of exhaustion, aching feet and back, and the constant state of panic knowing I still wouldn't have enough money to cover everything that needed to be covered.