So was Clemens, yet you exclude him. Hypocritical.

 

That is where we differ. I don't know that Clemens was a HOF'er before cheating. A borderline call - Gooden-like.

He hit the most homers, but you could make arguments for Ivan Rodriguez and Johnny Bench as best "offensive" catchers. But being the best in just one aspect doesn't always get you in, or even mean you are deserving. In Piazza's case, I do think he is deserving, but I have no issues if he has to wait a few more years.

 

I don't remember Bench or Pudge ever hitting .360. His CAREER batting average is .308. That's Joe Mauer territory plus he hit 427 Hrs and drove in 1335 RBIs. He has over 2,000 career hits w/ a .377 OBP. He never struck out more than 93 times. Guy was just great. He deserves it more than Biggio. Baseball Reference has him ranked as the #44 hitter of all time b/n Rose and Pujols...come on

 

Pudge was as juiced as they come, so if we're going to hold out Bonds, we have to hold out Pudge.

That is where we differ. I don't know that Clemens was a HOF'er before cheating. A borderline call - Gooden-like.

 

He won 3 CY Youngs and an MVP before you arbitrarily decided he started cheating. You know how many pitchers with that on their resumes aren't in the Hall of Fame? After today, it'll be Clemens and Kershaw (who's pretty much a lock unless his career suddenly ends).

 

Gooden didn't even win multiple CY Youngs.

Nothing hypocritical for me. Rose was a HOF'er before he ever did one thing wrong and he has admitted his wrong doing (regardless of how long it took and how botched the confession was).

 

This.

 

All 4,256 hits were obtained without steroids.

All 3,562 games he played in were without steroids.

All 14,053 at bats were without steroids.

3 World Series rings, 3 batting titles, 1 MVP award, 2 Gold Gloves, 1 Rookie of the Year, and 17 All star appearances - all without steroids.

 

As a player, Pete Rose definitely deserves to be in the HOF!

This.

 

All 4,256 hits were obtained without steroids.

All 3,562 games he played in were without steroids.

All 14,053 at bats were without steroids.

3 World Series rings, 3 batting titles, 1 MVP award, 2 Gold Gloves, 1 Rookie of the Year, and 17 All star appearances - all without steroids.

 

As a player, Pete Rose definitely deserves to be in the HOF!

 

As a player, so do Bonds and Clemens. Let's just call it what it is. It's bias because Rose played in Cincinnati, and Clemens and Bonds didn't.

Most guys lose a lot of their muscle mass after their career ends. Why wouldn't they? They stop working out every single day.

 

I'm not saying he did or didn't use. Someone asked if he was ever accused of being a user, and I just put the arguments out there that people use to "prove" he was. As far as losing muscle mass, yes everyone loses muscle mass as they age. But "natural" guys tend to retain more of that mass, even as they stop lifting as much (I myself fit into this category)...it's genetics. They tend to get bigger over time rather than quickly, and are much slower to lose the mass. Guys who used, built mass they weren't naturally inclined to build, and once they stop using genetics take back over. Those guys tend to get big really quick, and shrink back to size quickly.

 

I think he should get in. There's never been any hard proof he used, he's never been on any list. He was one of the best offensive players of the 90's, and had a long, extended peak. He was a ROY, MVP and finished high in MVP voting several times, and received MVP votes in something like 10 years. Besides the PED allegations, his only issues were that he played in Houston and didn't get a ton of media coverage and never won a world series.

As a player, so do Bonds and Clemens. Let's just call it what it is. It's bias because Rose played in Cincinnati, and Clemens and Bonds didn't.

 

Nope. It's because some used synthetic drugs to continue their career and put up bigger #s; the other is just a pathetic gambling addict.

Nope. It's because some used synthetic drugs to continue their career and put up bigger #s; the other is just a pathetic gambling addict.

 

Okay, but Bonds and Clemens both had HOF worthy numbers before any PED use. Look at their career accomplishments before the use and compare it to other HOF'ers. They deserve to be in.

I don't remember Bench or Pudge ever hitting .360. His CAREER batting average is .308. That's Joe Mauer territory plus he hit 427 Hrs and drove in 1335 RBIs. He has over 2,000 career hits w/ a .377 OBP. He never struck out more than 93 times. Guy was just great. He deserves it more than Biggio. Baseball Reference has him ranked as the #44 hitter of all time b/n Rose and Pujols...come on

 

Pudge was as juiced as they come, so if we're going to hold out Bonds, we have to hold out Pudge.

 

No arguments from me. I do think he was the best hitting catcher, but I don't think it's as much a slam dunk as many people like to say. Pudge was a career .298 hitter, played longer, had 600 more hits, more stolen bases, more total bases and was maybe the best defensive catcher ever, where Piazza was pretty bad behind the plate. Bench had a couple historic years offensively for a catcher.

 

Piazza belongs in the HOF. His defensive shortcoming hurt his case. Playing during the steroid era hurts him. And he's competing with some all timers that played during his era.....Maddux, The Big Unit, Glavine, Frank Thomas etc, that are costing him votes. He'll get in, it just may take another year or two. Although, early polls are showing he may just get in this year.

No arguments from me. I do think he was the best hitting catcher, but I don't think it's as much a slam dunk as many people like to say. Pudge was a career .298 hitter, played longer, had 600 more hits, more stolen bases, more total bases and was maybe the best defensive catcher ever, where Piazza was pretty bad behind the plate. Bench had a couple historic years offensively for a catcher.

 

I think Pudge w/ it all put together, was probably the best for longer. However, there will always be the steroid cloud w/ him b/c he was in the same locker room as Canseco, Palmeiro, and Juan Guzman to be fair or not. He was even named in Juiced, which credibly or not, was used as a reference for the Dowd Report.

I think Rose should be in as should Bonds, Clemens.

 

All IMO were HoFers before what ever they did or didn't do.

I think Pudge w/ it all put together, was probably the best for longer. However, there will always be the steroid cloud w/ him b/c he was in the same locker room as Canseco, Palmeiro, and Juan Guzman to be fair or not. He was even named in Juiced, which credibly or not, was used as a reference for the Dowd Report.

 

I believe Pudge juiced. He was one of those guys that morphed pretty quickly into big, hulking home run hitters after being a singles and double guy early in his career. And when testing started, he quickly shrunk back to what he was before. Being teammates with and getting named by Canseco is pretty damning as well.

High Heat Stats MLB ‏@HighHeatStats

 

Randy Johnson vs existing HOFers: 603 PA .195/.304/.317 13 HR, 56 RBI 81 BB, 160 K Breadown:

 

Bonds and Clemens deserve it bo in. They played in a time period where juiced players were playing against juiced players. So it's not like they were the only two doing it.

That is where we differ. I don't know that Clemens was a HOF'er before cheating. A borderline call - Gooden-like.

 

At age 34 Baseball Reference lists his career to be most like Tom Seaver.