I hate to wade into this topic today, but the cause of the Southern states was explicitly the cause of slavery. I think modern attempts to cast noble innocence on the Confederacy is disinformation. I agree with doomer that slavery, oppression, and racism were not and are not peculiar to the Confederate states, but they did fight for it, explicitly, and their flag is symbolic of that. To wave it around today and proclaim it doesn't carry that symbolism is untenable and I don't know why good-natured people so adamantly defend it as something else.

 

Proclaimed the vice-President of the Confederacy, Alexander Stephens, speaking in Georgia, as it were:

 

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.

 

The president of the Confederacy put it differently:

 

The condition of slavery with us is, in a word, Mr. President, nothing but the form of civil government instituted for a class of people not fit to govern themselves. It is exactly what in every State exists in some form or other. It is just that kind of control which is extended in every northern State over its convicts, its lunatics, its minors, its apprentices. It is but a form of civil government for those who by their nature are not fit to govern themselves. We recognize the fact of the inferiority stamped upon that race of men by the Creator, and from the cradle to the grave, our Government, as a civil institution, marks that inferiority.

 

The support of slavery was an abomination to mankind, but as I mentioned it was and is not peculiar to the US south, and it was essentially sanctioned in many if not all parts of the world until finally there arose a cry against it. George Washington among our founders was a slave owner. Much of the foundation of US was built on the back of slavery, so why not condemn the US flag...although I am sure there are those who will take up that matter. However, the fight for slavery directly affected only the very few men of wealth in the South, and those who did business with them in the North and probably few of the men who actually fought for the confederacy. I can say from growing up in the South that there was still a high resentment to the North, and it had nothing whatsoever to do with slavery, it had to do with the feeling that the South had little to no voice in their self-determination after the civil war. Of course the winners get to write the history books.

 

Having said this, I agree that a different way to celebrate southern culture other than one linked to its history of slavery would be a better choice.

I don't think it is a Godfather connection.

 

:deadhorse:

Why not? For years they have been forcing gambling on you with this awful plate...

 

 

Now at least you can choose between two evils instead of just one. :lol2:

Why not? For years they have been forcing gambling on you with this awful plate...

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]42833[/ATTACH]

 

Now at least you can choose between two evils instead of just one. :lol2:

 

I know right!?

However, the fight for slavery directly affected only the very few men of wealth in the South, and those who did business with them in the North and probably few of the men who actually fought for the confederacy.

 

I think it's important to note that slavery was more than a system of forced labor, but an all-encompassing system of racial subordination. The quotes from the leaders of the Confederacy indicate this philosophy. Slavery was undoubtedly essential to the South's economic system, but it was a social system as well and as such it affected and was supported by far more peopled than the landed wealthy. Even after slavery was abolished the systemic effects of it continued, e.g. Jim Crow.

 

All that is to say that even Southerners who didn't own slaves had a stake it in as a system and they voted for politicians to preserve it, both at the federal level, to the point of violence and war, then through the Confederacy. It was the cause de rigueur across the South, not just among the wealthy plantation owners.

what is the relation to gambling ?

I think it's important to note that slavery was more than a system of forced labor, but an all-encompassing system of racial subordination. The quotes from the leaders of the Confederacy indicate this philosophy. Slavery was undoubtedly essential to the South's economic system, but it was a social system as well and as such it affected and was supported by far more peopled than the landed wealthy. Even after slavery was abolished the systemic effects of it continued, e.g. Jim Crow.

 

All that is to say that even Southerners who didn't own slaves had a stake it in as a system and they voted for politicians to preserve it, both at the federal level, to the point of violence and war, then through the Confederacy. It was the cause de rigueur across the South, not just among the wealthy plantation owners.

 

I think the story line among the lower class white would have been not that they supported the culture, but rather they were made to fear the repercussions to their health, safety and financial interests of 1/3 of the population becoming suddenly emancipated with no plan as to how to assimilate this 1/3 into society. In fact, this is what did happen as a result of the war and is a factor in much of the resentment towards the North. To take that as a normal southerners endorsement of slavery is a very selective reasoning.

I think the story line among the lower class white would have been not that they supported the culture, but rather they were made to fear the repercussions to their health, safety and financial interests of 1/3 of the population becoming suddenly emancipated with no plan as to how to assimilate this 1/3 into society. In fact, this is what did happen as a result of the war and is a factor in much of the resentment towards the North. To take that as a normal southerners endorsement of slavery is a very selective reasoning.

 

Not at all. There wouldn't have been a century of Jim Crow laws and continued racism if slavery were simply an economic institution. It was a social institution undergirded by racism and abolishing its practice didn't abolish the views that supported it.

what is the relation to gambling ?

 

Horse racing is my guess, which the state only happens to be world-renowned for....Such an injustice!

That was not the only reason for the succession. The Southern states were left out of the constitutional convention, and they were much less enthralled with the idea of a strong federal institution which stripped rights from states. This argument went back from the start. It was ironic, that the northern industries benefitted, being the industrialized part of the US, from the cheap cotton, which was owed in a a major part from cheap labor that was brought about by slavery. I grew up in the deep south and I am proud of it. I have lived in several regions of this US, the West, the Northeast, the South, the upper Midwest and Kentucky....they all have their warts! My family was not even in the US when there was slavery, so I don't feel I have to apologize for it as some whites do. I condemn it, of course, and it has absolutely no place in humanity. But I will also say, that this culture was not peculiar to the US South, it is a tragedy that has existed through the ages, and it was particularly prevalent in Africa, the middle east and Europe well before there was a USA and hopefully will be completely abolished as it still exists in some forms in parts of the world.

 

Yeah there is no denying that our country became way wealthy on the backs of slaves. We exported a lot of cotton and I believe Europe depended on American Cotton too. So in a sense, slavery got us to where we were as a legitimate world power. I get the irony in that.

 

It's a fact that the south succeeded because they didn't want the federal government stripping states rights. It's also a fact that the #1 right that the south was afraid the federal government would strip was slavery. The southern states hit the panic button when Lincoln was elected because they knew he would work to eliminate the possibility for new slave states to enter the union. Eliminating the ability for new slave states to enter the union would have caused the institution of slavery to eventually collapse.

 

The south succeeded to preserve the southern way of life. They succeeded because they wanted to protect the institution of slavery. I know that some say "oh it was a states rights issue blah blah rabble rabble that's what my social studies teacher said blah blah rabble rabble." Truthfully it WAS a state's rights issue. And the right that southern states wanted was to own slaves. It does seem funny that "states rights" got slapped up as the reason that the south succeed, though. I guess you can't say we want to fight a war over the right to own people. No matter which way it gets spun, the issue was slavery.

Stars and bars are just not a good logo to use due to its more recent history - regardless of its use in 1864. I vote - dumb move.

Horse racing is my guess, which the state only happens to be world-renowned for....Such an injustice!

 

And I can live with that, it is an attempt to bring more revenue into KY.

Stars and bars are just not a good logo to use due to its more recent history - regardless of its use in 1864. I vote - dumb move.

 

At the end of the day , I agree with this.

 

Don't worry I won't be buying any.

 

And this has nothing to do with art, this is a government endorsement of God plain and simple.

 

The problem with this logic is that the government isn't endorsing anything. Just as they aren't endorsing a particular university or cause. They merely providing a product choice.

The problem with this logic is that the government isn't endorsing anything. Just as they aren't endorsing a particular university or cause. They merely providing a product choice.

 

If you get the "Free" Plate our choices are Gambling or God.

 

The product choices are for all the specialized plates and I am fine with those including ones that have a basis in religion.

They need more free choices.

 

We need to represent Bourbon, Basketball and Oxycontin at the very least.