The game I was at whenever the ref was asked why he didn't make the call his answer was that it wasn't in his area that he was watching. :lol:

 

Neither guy would accept responsibility. :lol:

 

Completely legit.

 

We have multiple officials so that the entire floor can be observed. If I'm the Lead (under the basket) and there's battling going on in the post or players cutting through the lane I am NOT going to see what goes on elsewhere. Heck, the ball could go out o the sideline that I'm closest to and I may have no clue who knocked it out. My focus is the lane.

I have some questions about the"act of shooting."

The NBA has its own "continuation play" which has the effect of beginning the act of shooting sometimes a dribble or so before the ball is actually released by the shooter. It seems that college and high school refs have adopted this same concept over the last five or so seasons. IMO this inerpretation is too broad and the "act" should be construed more narrowly. Currently, a shooting foul is awarded at a time when the fouled player still has many options available to him: shoot, pass, dribble. To me it should not be a shooting foul until he has clearly begun the motion of shooting to the virtual exclusion of his other options.

Likewise, when does the "act of shooting" end? Many times fouls are called well after the shooter has released the ball and thus the foul has no effect on the shot (except that it may have caused the shooter to flinch some). You see these a lot on 3-point attempts, especially where a feathery touch, sometimes actually a no-touch, are called well after the release. In the "old days" I've seen the fouls called after the release to be considered to be after the "act" and thus not be shooting fouls, but one-and-one or whatever. In such cases, a made basket would be allowed and the shooter would then have a one-and-one or 2 FT's if the double bonus is in effect.

On a side note---one thing that bothers me some as well is the anticipatory call, for example, where a trailing official calls a foul on a fast-break layup just because he thinks one will happen.

This has been a nice thread. Thanks, Clyde, for your efforts.

I have some questions about the"act of shooting."

The NBA has its own "continuation play" which has the effect of beginning the act of shooting sometimes a dribble or so before the ball is actually released by the shooter. It seems that college and high school refs have adopted this same concept over the last five or so seasons. IMO this inerpretation is too broad and the "act" should be construed more narrowly. Currently, a shooting foul is awarded at a time when the fouled player still has many options available to him: shoot, pass, dribble. To me it should not be a shooting foul until he has clearly begun the motion of shooting to the virtual exclusion of his other options.

Likewise, when does the "act of shooting" end? Many times fouls are called well after the shooter has released the ball and thus the foul has no effect on the shot (except that it may have caused the shooter to flinch some). You see these a lot on 3-point attempts, especially where a feathery touch, sometimes actually a no-touch, are called well after the release. In the "old days" I've seen the fouls called after the release to be considered to be after the "act" and thus not be shooting fouls, but one-and-one or whatever. In such cases, a made basket would be allowed and the shooter would then have a one-and-one or 2 FT's if the double bonus is in effect.

On a side note---one thing that bothers me some as well is the anticipatory call, for example, where a trailing official calls a foul on a fast-break layup just because he thinks one will happen.

This has been a nice thread. Thanks, Clyde, for your efforts.

 

 

What would you say the start of a shot looks like?

 

Re: when does a shot end? The shot ends when the shooter returns to the floor. So the ball out of his hands by itself does not mean it's not a shooting foul.

 

As to anticipating, trust me, it's easy to do. You need to have a slow whistle.

A1 dribbling to the basket, picks up his dribble while going for a layup, gets fouled on the floor and then subsequently makes the shot.

 

What do you have?

A1 dribbling to the basket, picks up his dribble while going for a layup, gets fouled on the floor and then subsequently makes the shot.

 

What do you have?

 

Sounds like a Clyde trap question but I will go ahead and say no shot because the foul occurred on the floor before the shot. Fire away with the correct answer Clyde.

In the "old days" I've seen the fouls called after the release to be considered to be after the "act" and thus not be shooting fouls, but one-and-one or whatever. In such cases, a made basket would be allowed and the shooter would then have a one-and-one or 2 FT's if the double bonus is in effect.

 

I had this happen to me in high school. I made a shot. The ref said I was fouled after the shot. I made both free throws. Four point play.

A1 dribbling to the basket, picks up his dribble while going for a layup, gets fouled on the floor and then subsequently makes the shot.

 

What do you have?

 

 

 

I'm going with basket is good since his dribble was picked up and he was in the process of attempting a shot.

Sounds like a Clyde trap question but I will go ahead and say no shot because the foul occurred on the floor before the shot. Fire away with the correct answer Clyde.

 

I'm going with basket is good since his dribble was picked up and he was in the process of attempting a shot.

 

This gets to TCJ's question/point about when a shot starts.

 

Basket would count. The shooting motion started when he was no longer dribbling AND still going to the hoop.

Here are some other questions:

 

1. I just saw this one happen. Inbounds play under the basket. Player inbounding the ball throws a bounce pass up the baseline. The ball bounces out of bounds and then the player receives the ball. The ref called it out of bounds on the inbounding team and awarded the ball to the other team. Correct call?

 

2. On an inbounds play, does the 5 second count end as soon as the player throws the ball (regardless of when it is touched by a player inbounds)?

 

3. On officials making calls out of their area, please correct me if wrong, but if an official sees an offense anywhere on the court he should call it. It doesn't matter if it is on the opposite side of the court and an official sees a foul, he should call it even if another official is standing right next to the play. I often hear fans complain because an official calls a foul "out of his area". I sometimes ask them if it was a foul and they say yes, but how could he see that. Well, if it was a foul then it was a foul and the official should call it no matter where it happens on the court. Correct?

Here are some other questions:

 

1. I just saw this one happen. Inbounds play under the basket. Player inbounding the ball throws a bounce pass up the baseline. The ball bounces out of bounds and then the player receives the ball. The ref called it out of bounds on the inbounding team and awarded the ball to the other team. Correct call?

 

 

 

2. On an inbounds play, does the 5 second count end as soon as the player throws the ball (regardless of when it is touched by a player inbounds)?

 

3. On officials making calls out of their area, please correct me if wrong, but if an official sees an offense anywhere on the court he should call it. It doesn't matter if it is on the opposite side of the court and an official sees a foul, he should call it even if another official is standing right next to the play. I often hear fans complain because an official calls a foul "out of his area". I sometimes ask them if it was a foul and they say yes, but how could he see that. Well, if it was a foul then it was a foul and the official should call it no matter where it happens on the court. Correct?

 

1. Correct. Pass has to hit inbounds.

2. Count stops on the release.

3. Tough one. It's an "it depends." An official would have to be 100% certain before he approached the other official who was right there. Most of the time if the calling official doesn't ask for help you're not going to say "hey, here's what I saw." A foul is a bit different. I can be opposite side out top and see a foul that the lead (right in front of the shooter) didn't see. I go get that foul.

1. Correct. Pass has to hit inbounds.

2. Count stops on the release.

3. Tough one. It's an "it depends." An official would have to be 100% certain before he approached the other official who was right there. Most of the time if the calling official doesn't ask for help you're not going to say "hey, here's what I saw." A foul is a bit different. I can be opposite side out top and see a foul that the lead (right in front of the shooter) didn't see. I go get that foul.

 

I disagree with #1. If the ball was never inbound then it cannot be called out of bounds. It could however be a violation for breaking the 3(?) foot invisible box plane

1. Correct. Pass has to hit inbounds.

2. Count stops on the release.

3. Tough one. It's an "it depends." An official would have to be 100% certain before he approached the other official who was right there. Most of the time if the calling official doesn't ask for help you're not going to say "hey, here's what I saw." A foul is a bit different. I can be opposite side out top and see a foul that the lead (right in front of the shooter) didn't see. I go get that foul.

 

On #3, I am not saying there is any disagreement. I am saying an official sees traveling, double dribble, a foul, any offense on the other side of the court, there is nothing wrong with that official blowing the whistle and making the call.

I disagree with #1. If the ball was never inbound then it cannot be called out of bounds. It could however be a violation for breaking the 3(?) foot invisible box plane

 

Rulebook (9-2) does not support your contention.

On #3, I am not saying there is any disagreement. I am saying an official sees traveling, double dribble, a foul, any offense on the other side of the court, there is nothing wrong with that official blowing the whistle and making the call.

 

We agree. However, if the baseline official calls a travel that took place above the 3 point line I as a coach am going to ask him why he was even looking there.

1. It's only 4 FTs if it was a multiple foul on a 3 point attempt. Otherwise it would be one shot per foul. Never seen it called.

2. I can't find anything in the rulebook to support your contention.

3. Correct. If the whistle is blown the TO is given to the D.

4. Correct. He's in the game until the table informs the officials that he has fouled out AND the officials have informed both the coach and the player.

 

I got some clarification. This first rule is even more weird than I thought:

 

1. Multiple fouls....

 

• if two players foul a player at same time WHILE HE IS NOT IN THE ACT OF SHOOTING... so, maybe just dribbling... player who is fouled gets 1 free throw for each foul ... and this IS NOT a bonus situation.

 

• if the player gets fouled by 2 players at same time while in the act of shooting a 2-point attempt the player gets 2 free throws... 1 for each foul... even if he MAKES THE SHOT... he still gets to shoot 2 FTs

 

• if player gets fouled at same time by 2 players while shooting a 3 point shot which he misses, then he gets 2 FTs for each foul, so 4 FTs total

 

• if a player is shooting a 3 point shot and is fouled at same time by 2 players and he makes the 3, then he gets 2 FTs... one for each foul... so, there is a scenario in play for a 5 point play

 

2. If a player blocks a shot so hard that it causes the shooter to fall hard to the ground it can be called a foul... even though the blocker got all ball... Doug said he has called this foul before in a game

 

Doug will be at the Dixie v Conner game this Saturday night if you two want to have a super geeky conversation about rules and get the book out and look up page numbers and stuff... lol