The Koch brothers name keeps coming up with this.

The Koch brothers name keeps coming up with this.

 

Haven't seen that. How so?

Tomorrow at 10 a.m. the WI Senate will begin passing legislation. One interesting piece is that the collective bargaining language can be removed from its current bill and submitted on its own or attached to a resolution. Since it does not involve any spending, it can be passed with a simple majority and does not require the 20 votes. That would be interesting.

Tomorrow at 10 a.m. the WI Senate will begin passing legislation. One interesting piece is that the collective bargaining language can be removed from its current bill and submitted on its own or attached to a resolution. Since it does not involve any spending, it can be passed with a simple majority and does not require the 20 votes. That would be interesting.

:thumb:

 

Let's hope the Reps have the will to follow through with this.

I think that the real question is whether Wisconsin is an aberation or is this the beginning of a national movement. Is this an all out assault on organized labor by the republican party? If it is, the battle lines are drawn. Whether you are a member of organized labor or not, most of what we take for granted in salary, benefits and working conditions, we owe to organized labor. The death of organized labor would mean open season on American workers. Organized labor created the middle class. An assault on organized labor will prove to be a direct assault on the middle class. I will fight.

:thumb: I'm not a big fan of any of the Nazi signs, either.

 

Yeah, I don't like the Nazi references either but if some idiot wants to compare an American politian to Hitler or other Nazi then it shows their ignorance more then anything. The cross hairs in this heated of a situation is just flat dangerous, and I usually don't jump on that bandwagon.

I think that the real question is whether Wisconsin is an aberation or is this the beginning of a national movement. Is this an all out assault on organized labor by the republican party? If it is, the battle lines are drawn. Whether you are a member of organized labor or not, most of what we take for granted in salary, benefits and working conditions, we owe to organized labor. The death of organized labor would mean open season on American workers. Organized labor created the middle class. An assault on organized labor will prove to be a direct assault on the middle class. I will fight.

 

With all due respect, I think you have a revisionist view of history. The fact of the matter is, there has been a gradual decline of unions in the private sector since the 1980's, following the total collapse of the steel, auto, and airline industries, due almost entirely to the unsustainable demands made by labor unions. Union employees now account for only 6.9% of the private sector workforce. They are almost non-existent. Union workers in government is a much more recent phenomenon, and now account for more union employees (about 76 million) than there are in the private sector (71 million). The reason for this is explainable - in the private sector, the collapse of a company caused by unions throws workers out of jobs. Not as easy in government, where pro-union governments can (and have) simply taxed their way to sustainability. What you are seeing here is that now, even governments are collapsing and on the verge of bankruptcy, and you are absolutely correct, this is an assault on the last denizens of unions, in state government. Unions have caused the collapse of so much, you are seeing the death throes at the governmental level, and yes, it will probably take a while, because there are plenty of folks who share your view. However, you need only look at the trend in the private sector to know that you are in the minority.

I think that the real question is whether Wisconsin is an aberation or is this the beginning of a national movement. Is this an all out assault on organized labor by the republican party?

 

The issue of financial viability of governments at all levels will go nationwide. Will it be used to vilify the Republican party - that seems to be answered already. However, the issue is much broader than organized labor only. Almost all governments and the government unions at all levels have refused to face economic facts. Revenues (tax receipts) are down, earnings on defined benefit pensions plans are down. There are dozens of other issues but these 2 alone create a ticking time bomb that no political function wants to address until legally required to do so. Since most states have a 'must balance' budget law, unlike the federal government, the day of reckoning going to come. And it will come fast and all it will hit across the country - including KY.

 

Defined benefit pensions in general are dinosaurs. Government type pensions that are relatively rich in their benefits are unheard of in today's corporate world. Government have been assuming they will make 7 - 10% a year return on their pension funds for the last 4 or more years. When the returns have been nowhere near that. And the auditors are calling it out. Most government pensions are underfunded and underfunded by a lot. This is why businesses have been going to 'Cash Pensions' the last 10 years. And now companies are eliminating pensions all together for most new employees. They get a 401K with no matching - that's it. That is the current 'standard' in the business world for a new hire.

 

So blame those mean ol' Republicans if you want. But the fact is that the cost structure of most governments are unaffordable and labor cost is the major part of that. Its just a cold, hard, real economic fact that can no longer be ignored.

 

 

 

Here is an interesting link with lots of links to other information and articles on the subject.

 

http://www.pensiontsunami.com/index.php

 

Here is the Kentucky version of this site:

 

http://www.pensiontsunami.com/regions.php?type=state&id=22

 

Other links that show how bad this crisis is:

 

http://money.cnn.com/2010/06/16/news/economy/pension_fund_crisis.fortune/index.htm

 

http://www.valuewalk.com/economic-policy/public-pension-showdown-actuaries-economists/

Overall union membership is now over 50% government employees.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/23/business/23labor.html

That's surprising.

With all due respect, I think you have a revisionist view of history. The fact of the matter is, there has been a gradual decline of unions in the private sector since the 1980's, following the total collapse of the steel, auto, and airline industries, due almost entirely to the unsustainable demands made by labor unions. Union employees now account for only 6.9% of the private sector workforce. They are almost non-existent. Union workers in government is a much more recent phenomenon, and now account for more union employees (about 76 million) than there are in the private sector (71 million). The reason for this is explainable - in the private sector, the collapse of a company caused by unions throws workers out of jobs. Not as easy in government, where pro-union governments can (and have) simply taxed their way to sustainability. What you are seeing here is that now, even governments are collapsing and on the verge of bankruptcy, and you are absolutely correct, this is an assault on the last denizens of unions, in state government. Unions have caused the collapse of so much, you are seeing the death throes at the governmental level, and yes, it will probably take a while, because there are plenty of folks who share your view. However, you need only look at the trend in the private sector to know that you are in the minority.

 

No revisionist view of history. I am well aware of the decline in union membership. It is a simple fact that the gains made by unions spread into the general labor force and made unions less necessary. In the auto industry the UAW has been part of the solution. Don't look now but the US auto industry is in the midst of a big comeback. If we allow the republican party to legislate the death of unions, shame on us and we will deserve what we get. I have great faith that the American people will wake up and find out that these people do not have their interests at heart.

Wow!! This thread has been so interesting. To all of you really smart folks---Thank you for contibuting your well educated and passionate opinions on this topic. Well worth the $20! Feels like it was at least a 2 credit hour course!! When is the final exam?

The Koch brothers name keeps coming up with this.

 

I think that the real question is whether Wisconsin is an aberation or is this the beginning of a national movement. Is this an all out assault on organized labor .

 

This is why the Koch brothers name comes up.

 

The thinking is that based on WI and comments the brothers have made more states will face this issue and have the support of the Kochs.

Koch brothers article:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/22/us/22koch.html?partner=rss&emc=rss

With all due respect, I think you have a revisionist view of history. The fact of the matter is, there has been a gradual decline of unions in the private sector since the 1980's, following the total collapse of the steel, auto, and airline industries, due almost entirely to the unsustainable demands made by labor unions. Union employees now account for only 6.9% of the private sector workforce. They are almost non-existent. Union workers in government is a much more recent phenomenon, and now account for more union employees (about 76 million) than there are in the private sector (71 million). The reason for this is explainable - in the private sector, the collapse of a company caused by unions throws workers out of jobs. Not as easy in government, where pro-union governments can (and have) simply taxed their way to sustainability. What you are seeing here is that now, even governments are collapsing and on the verge of bankruptcy, and you are absolutely correct, this is an assault on the last denizens of unions, in state government. Unions have caused the collapse of so much, you are seeing the death throes at the governmental level, and yes, it will probably take a while, because there are plenty of folks who share your view. However, you need only look at the trend in the private sector to know that you are in the minority.

 

I don't hand out many complements in P&R anymore due to the overwhelming volume of drivel offered up in this forum. But I have to applaud you for this post Hearsay. Excellent observation my friend.