Very nice post Jim. Very nice!!!

I totally agree with everything Jim is saying. Also, this makes what a Walton-Verona or Brossart has done even more impressive. A lot of the support of the 'traditional' powers comes from past players and at Walton & Brossart that support obviously isn't available. Trust me when I say, getting that community support, especially in the first couple of years when you are losing embarassingly, is very difficult - but I totally agree with Jim that it is necessary for a successful program.

 

Another quick point. There have been a lot written on the 'classless blowouts'. Every time this happens, the winning team has people come on BGPs and say that if the losing team 'worked harder' they wouldn't have gotten blown out. Every time I read this it turns my stomach because I think the poster is saying that the winning teams players are working hard on the field then the losing teams players. However, I'm pretty sure that the losing team's players, in almost every instance, is working just as hard on the field as the winning teams players. Do most posters believe that the winning teams players worked harder?

This just in to the news desk... Schools like Triity and St. X have something called "tuition". It means you pay money.... a lot of money for what the school brings to the table. I have not seen a lot of ink on the sacrifices families make to send their kids there. Some of you BGPers make it sound like limos are sent around town to brings the chosen ones to the school. I work my tail of to send my kids to the school I think will give them the best shot at life. So if you're not willing to sacrifice your big blue season tickets, new bass boat motor and shotgun shells for an education fine, but don't make me and my brothers into the bad guys.

This just in to the news desk... Schools like Triity and St. X have something called "tuition". It means you pay money.... a lot of money for what the school brings to the table. I have not seen a lot of ink on the sacrifices families make to send their kids there. Some of you BGPers make it sound like limos are sent around town to brings the chosen ones to the school. I work my tail of to send my kids to the school I think will give them the best shot at life. So if you're not willing to sacrifice your big blue season tickets, new bass boat motor and shotgun shells for an education fine, but don't make me and my brothers into the bad guys.

 

I applaud you and other parents that work to provide what you believe is the best education for your child. I know of several parents that have struggled financially to send their children to the school of their choice. I can understand your frustration at those who feel that you must have been born with a silver spoon in your mouth. However, I think that you do a disservice to your own cause with the bolded statement. You do exactly what you accuse your detractors of doing. They stereotype "you" as having your kids taken to school in a limo, while eating their caviar. You stereotype them as well. You also presume that a good education cannot be had at a public institution. Some parents of public school students don't HAVE to sacrifice for tuition, as their child is receiving an excellent education as a public school. Not all private schools are good and not all public schools are bad. The crossover lines are MUCH hazier than that.

I have several ???"s I do not know the answer to. If a student has the $$ can they be turned down at a private school? If a student has low test scores, attendance problems, discipline problems from other schools will they be turned down? What is tuition at private schools? How much aid can a student receive? What is the aid based on as far as how much $$ parents make? Is there a discount if you have more than 1 child in the school? If a parent works in the school do students go for free? Do parents who volunteer for activities receive credit? Sorry for so many ??'s but I know the answers to none of these.

I have several ???"s I do not know the answer to. If a student has the $$ can they be turned down at a private school? If a student has low test scores, attendance problems, discipline problems from other schools will they be turned down? What is tuition at private schools? How much aid can a student receive? What is the aid based on as far as how much $$ parents make? Is there a discount if you have more than 1 child in the school? If a parent works in the school do students go for free? Do parents who volunteer for activities receive credit? Sorry for so many ??'s but I know the answers to none of these.

 

Here some generalized answers.

 

If a student has the $$ can they be turned down at a private school?

A: It would not be in the schools interest if they have available capacity and the student meets their other standards.

 

If a student has low test scores, attendance problems, discipline problems from other schools will they be turned down?

A: Possibly. Some, if not most schools pride themselves on being able to 'shape up' kids with some level of problems. But if it does not work out the student can be expelled.

 

What is tuition at private schools? How much aid can a student receive? What is the aid based on as far as how much $$ parents make?

A: Catholic system - $7,000 to $11,000 annually, depending on parish membership. Louisville schools are most expensive. Other non-Catholic privates are higher. I am not sure how much higher.

 

Is there a discount if you have more than 1 child in the school?

A: Usually, but it is low, very low - like as little as $50 a year. When compared to the numbers above its not really worth mentioning. Maybe different for other areas and schools.

 

If a parent works in the school do students go for free?

A: Discounts of up to 50% may be available. I have never, ever heard 'free'. Remember private school salary is generally markedly less than public school salary.

 

Do parents who volunteer for activities receive credit?

A: Financial aid comes in 2 forms - Merit (i.e. test results usually) and need (ability to pay). If receiving the later and playing an KHSAA sport you have to be approved and go through the clearing house. Think taxes/audit on steroids. Also aid is usually still far, far less than 50%. Think 10 - 20% as possible. And aid is dependent on availability of aid from the institution and that seems to be reducing the last couple of years. So no, parents do not earn credit for volunteerism. Volunteerism is expected and required in most cases.

 

Here are few more questions that are common:

 

Do you have to provide your own transportation to private schools in Kentucky?

A: Yes, unlike some states Kentucky does not provide transportation for private schools. Cost of transportation can be a substantial additional cost.

 

Are you allowed to deduct tuition from taxes?

A: The IRS has made it clear that tuition that is tied directly to a child is not tax deductible. So usually, no.

 

Don't some schools have dorms on campus for athletes?

A: Some Catholic schools in Louisville do have dorms - they are not not for athletes! They are for brothers who are doing seminary training. There is no 'Tiger lodge' or 'Knight lodge'.

 

 

I hope this helps. I stop getting offended by any questions like this long ago as long as they are sincere. Being involved with schools throughout the state it is easy to see where the places that have a classic one elementary, one MS, one HS in the country and surrounding counties would want to know how all these options that are mostly available in the urban areas work.

Edited December 2, 201015 yr by Bluegrasscard
added to volunteer question answer

Here some generalized answers.

 

If a student has the $$ can they be turned down at a private school?

A: It would not be in the schools interest if they have available capacity and the student meets their other standards.

 

If a student has low test scores, attendance problems, discipline problems from other schools will they be turned down?

A: Possibly. Some, if not most schools pride themselves on being able to 'shape up' kids with some level of problems. But if it does not work out the student can be expelled.

 

What is tuition at private schools? How much aid can a student receive? What is the aid based on as far as how much $$ parents make?

A: Catholic system - $7,000 to $11,000 annually, depending on parish membership. Louisville schools are most expensive. Other non-Catholic privates are higher. I am not sure how much higher.

 

Is there a discount if you have more than 1 child in the school?

A: Usually, but it is low, very low - like as little as $50 a year. When compared to the numbers above its not really worth mentioning. Maybe different for other areas and schools.

 

If a parent works in the school do students go for free?

A: Discounts of up to 50% may be available. I have never, ever heard 'free'. Remember private school salary is generally markedly less than public school salary.

 

Do parents who volunteer for activities receive credit?

A: Financial aid comes in 2 forms - Merit (i.e. test results usually) and need (ability to pay). If receiving the later and playing an KHSAA sport you have to be approved and go through the clearing house. Think taxes/audit on steroids. Also aid is usually still far, far less than 50%. Think 10 - 20% as possible. And aid is dependent on availability of aid from the institution and that seems to be reducing the last couple of years. So no, parents do not earn credit for volunteerism. Volunteerism is expected and required in most cases.

 

Here are few more questions that are common:

 

Do you have to provide your own transportation to private schools in Kentucky?

A: Yes, unlike some states Kentucky does not provide transportation for private schools. Cost of transportation can be a substantial additional cost.

Are you allowed to deduct tuition from taxes?

A: The IRS has made it clear that tuition that is tied directly to a child is not tax deductible. So usually, no.

 

Don't some schools have dorms on campus for athletes?

A: Some Catholic schools in Louisville do have dorms - they are not not for athletes! They are for brothers who are doing seminary training. There is no 'Tiger lodge' or 'Knight lodge'.

 

 

I hope this helps. I stop getting offended by any questions like this long ago as long as they are sincere. Being involved with schools throughout the state it is easy to see where the places that have a classic one elementary, one MS, one HS in the country and surrounding counties would want to know how all these options that are mostly available in the urban areas work.

 

Not that it matters much but the Campbell county schools system provides bussing for the catholic schools in the county.

This just in to the news desk... Schools like Triity and St. X have something called "tuition". It means you pay money.... a lot of money for what the school brings to the table. I have not seen a lot of ink on the sacrifices families make to send their kids there. Some of you BGPers make it sound like limos are sent around town to brings the chosen ones to the school. I work my tail of to send my kids to the school I think will give them the best shot at life. So if you're not willing to sacrifice your big blue season tickets, new bass boat motor and shotgun shells for an education fine, but don't make me and my brothers into the bad guys.

 

Don't waste your time. Let the haters hate. They don't understand, never have, never will.

I applaud you and other parents that work to provide what you believe is the best education for your child. I know of several parents that have struggled financially to send their children to the school of their choice. I can understand your frustration at those who feel that you must have been born with a silver spoon in your mouth. However, I think that you do a disservice to your own cause with the bolded statement. You do exactly what you accuse your detractors of doing. They stereotype "you" as having your kids taken to school in a limo, while eating their caviar. You stereotype them as well. You also presume that a good education cannot be had at a public institution. Some parents of public school students don't HAVE to sacrifice for tuition, as their child is receiving an excellent education as a public school. Not all private schools are good and not all public schools are bad. The crossover lines are MUCH hazier than that.

 

I'm one of "those" that experienced both at some point in the student-to-parent span. I could not agree more with the above. The only gross generalization left out by Xgrad was Skoal tobacco and beef jerky. One sentence/generalization can completely invalidate an otherwise intelligent response.

Now, I'm generally not one to advocate political correctness, but perhaps in the county public/independent public/private debate it is necessary to retire the phrase "work harder" in favor of something less loaded.

 

Facts are that county public school supporters, when being offered reasons as to their school's lack of success, generally close their ears when they read/hear "work harder" from the supporters of a successful FB program. Nobody who's pouring themselves out for their program wants to be told they're lazy when they just sat down to check BGP at 10:30 p.m. after they just got done washing another load of smelly uniforms.

 

The problem, of course, is that those involved with the county public schools that struggle are indeed busting their butts to make their school successful. There just aren't enough people in the community committed to the success of the program; at least not at the level they need to be to change the culture.

 

So, for the sake of improving football across the board in Ky., instead of "work harder," supporters of successful programs should be saying "get more people involved." Because, at the end of the day, the lack of broad community involvement/participation/support the biggest difference I see between successful programs and struggling ones.

 

I'm Jim Schue and I support this message ...

 

I definitely agree, support on and off the field is very important to the success of any program.

Jim, I once complained about the beating the publics were taking...I was told the Publics "need to work harder". After watching my son play at Male for four years and the WORK these kids did...well I was not happy with the outsiders comment who had no idea how much we Worked.

 

Since 2000 6A twice the publics have won the Title. And from reports I'm getting on BGPs it might be a very long time befotre they win another one...So how long does this happen before someone steps up and make it a level playing field. Male doesn't struggle per say until they get into the playoffs. In my sons four years they didn't even get into a final game.

 

If it was reversed, they will feel the same. Its human nature.

 

The numbers cannot lie.

 

As the bolded above it would appear that KHSAA continually steps to 'level the playing field'. The question has to be why? Are things any different now than they have been in the past? Another question has to be 'have the the attempts to "level the playing field" hurt more than helped?'. A question rarely asked.

 

As for the numbers here are some of interest.

 

a) Since 1959 The Louisville Catholic Schools have won 68% of the championships at the highest level class - (3A, 4A and 6A). That is basically 7 in 10.

b) In the last decade it has been 9 out of 10. Male winning the last one for publics in 2000.

c) There has been a decade where this 9 out of 10 streak was duplicated - from 1969 to 1978. Butler defeated Trinity in 1970 to spoil the Louisville Catholic's run. That run included championships by Trinity, St. X and Flaget. I believe Flaget closed in 1973. Most of its remaining class consolidated into the Trinity ranks. Thus, consolidating 3 powers in Louisville to 2.

d) But the publics have had a decade of a good run. The best was from 1979 to 1988. Butler, Christian County (2), Henry Clay and Shelby County where the party crashers.

e) Since 1969 (40 years) there has been only 6 Championship games where a Louisville Catholic has not been in the finals. All 6 of those came between 1979 and 1996. Since 1996 there has always been a Louisville Catholic school in the finals.

f) 1996 was also that last year a non-Jefferson County team won the highest level title - Nelson County. Since then its been the M, T and X show. And as pointed out above M has struggled to get to the finals since 2002.

g) Championship games were competitive (less say that is defined by being within 30 points) regardless of the makeup of the finalists between 1975 and 2003. In 1974 the score was 48-14. Since 2004 there have been 3 lopsided (more than 30 points differential) score in the final. Most know what the make of those games were.

 

The number say - almost 70% of the actual championship titles go to the Louisville Catholics - its been that way for 50 years, literally. With Flaget closing the mid-70s the powerhouses probably picked up a little extra with less division. They are in the finals around 85-90% of the time and since 1997 it has been 100% of the time. So in the end the guys at the other end of the field are likely going to be wearing green one way or the other.

 

What milestones have happened that make impact the numbers above?

 

1) 1987 - Switch from Jeff County vs. State Champions to one where finalist could be all Jeff County or all State. Did that work? Since then there have been only 2 years with 2 state teams (1987 and 1996). There have been 10 years with all-Jefferson County final. This was likely a failed effort.

2) 2003 or 2004 - Alternating the 6A brackets. OK, that fixed the item directly above every other year, but look at item g) in the list above.

 

What other milestones had an impact?

 

1976 - Desegregation. It disrupted all of Jefferson County including the traditional powers. Hence the golden decade for publics from 1979 through 1988 noted above in item d), especially the State-wides. In fact only state-wides only won 2 championships outside this window - 1991 (Clark) and 1996 (Nelson).

2000-2006: The unwinding of the racial based assignments in Jefferson County and rise of the magnet schools and open enrollment in Jefferson County. So Jefferson County has been dealing with restructuring itself yet again in terms of public schools. Has it been smooth? Well, when you fire the superintendent before the end of their contract as was just done that is not a good sign.

 

Check this link out for the details - here.

 

So during these periods what evil things have the traditional powers been doing? Well, both both got nice stadiums. Trinity switched coaches a few times but its football reputation was solidified by the Brohms. Glasser has been at St. X since 1978 or so. Other than playing in nicer stadium I bet a St. X practice looks like it did in the late 70s. And their numbers are always the same. 100+ Freshmen, an almost all-senior starting line-up, 3 - 4 deep at every position and a JV squad that has its own practice on Saturdays since most of those guys do not see the field on Friday. In short, the powers have been doing what they do.

 

Does this mean that publics do not work hard? Hell no. But the churn and discord and shuffling seems to have hurt the Jefferson County public schools - even Male. I recently talked in depth to the coaches and boosters of the Westport Middle school team at a KYMSFA playoff game. They said this would be the last time those young men played together. Why? Because they will scatter to multiple schools in the magnet system. That is no way to build programs. Programs start with flag football in the 1st grade, not with the new freshmen crop every year.

 

So now we have the latest gerrymandering effort by KHSAA. Maybe this will help Male and Manual - the two traditional public powers from Jefferson county. Maybe it will be another failed attempt. And yes, I mean 'another' given the lack of success of the efforts noted above. But in the end, odds are you have to go though the green monsters to be a (State) Champion. It has been that way for a long, long time. Making special, arbitrary rules won't stop that.

Maybe the L-ville publics should take a look at Cinci Colerain & see what they're doing. They've been successfully competing with the Cincinnati GCL schools for quite a while now & there doesn't seem to be any end in sight. Demographics are also similar to many of the Jefferson Cty publics.

 

They must be doing something right.

As the bolded above it would appear that KHSAA continually steps to 'level the playing field'. The question has to be why? Are things any different now than they have been in the past? Another question has to be 'have the the attempts to "level the playing field" hurt more than helped?'. A question rarely asked.

 

As for the numbers here are some of interest.

 

a) Since 1959 The Louisville Catholic Schools have won 68% of the championships at the highest level class - (3A, 4A and 6A). That is basically 7 in 10.

b) In the last decade it has been 9 out of 10. Male winning the last one for publics in 2000.

c) There has been a decade where this 9 out of 10 streak was duplicated - from 1969 to 1978. Butler defeated Trinity in 1970 to spoil the Louisville Catholic's run. That run included championships by Trinity, St. X and Flaget. I believe Flaget closed in 1973. Most of its remaining class consolidated into the Trinity ranks. Thus, consolidating 3 powers in Louisville to 2.

d) But the publics have had a decade of a good run. The best was from 1979 to 1988. Butler, Christian County (2), Henry Clay and Shelby County where the party crashers.

e) Since 1969 (40 years) there has been only 6 Championship games where a Louisville Catholic has not been in the finals. All 6 of those came between 1979 and 1996. Since 1996 there has always been a Louisville Catholic school in the finals.

f) 1996 was also that last year a non-Jefferson County team won the highest level title - Nelson County. Since then its been the M, T and X show. And as pointed out above M has struggled to get to the finals since 2002.

g) Championship games were competitive (less say that is defined by being within 30 points) regardless of the makeup of the finalists between 1975 and 2003. In 1974 the score was 48-14. Since 2004 there have been 3 lopsided (more than 30 points differential) score in the final. Most know what the make of those games were.

 

The number say - almost 70% of the actual championship titles go to the Louisville Catholics - its been that way for 50 years, literally. With Flaget closing the mid-70s the powerhouses probably picked up a little extra with less division. They are in the finals around 85-90% of the time and since 1997 it has been 100% of the time. So in the end the guys at the other end of the field are likely going to be wearing green one way or the other.

 

What milestones have happened that make impact the numbers above?

 

1) 1987 - Switch from Jeff County vs. State Champions to one where finalist could be all Jeff County or all State. Did that work? Since then there have been only 2 years with 2 state teams (1987 and 1996). There have been 10 years with all-Jefferson County final. This was likely a failed effort.

2) 2003 or 2004 - Alternating the 6A brackets. OK, that fixed the item directly above every other year, but look at item g) in the list above.

 

What other milestones had an impact?

 

1976 - Desegregation. It disrupted all of Jefferson County including the traditional powers. Hence the golden decade for publics from 1979 through 1988 noted above in item d), especially the State-wides. In fact only state-wides only won 2 championships outside this window - 1991 (Clark) and 1996 (Nelson).

2000-2006: The unwinding of the racial based assignments in Jefferson County and rise of the magnet schools and open enrollment in Jefferson County. So Jefferson County has been dealing with restructuring itself yet again in terms of public schools. Has it been smooth? Well, when you fire the superintendent before the end of their contract as was just done that is not a good sign.

 

Check this link out for the details - here.

 

So during these periods what evil things have the traditional powers been doing? Well, both both got nice stadiums. Trinity switched coaches a few times but its football reputation was solidified by the Brohms. Glasser has been at St. X since 1978 or so. Other than playing in nicer stadium I bet a St. X practice looks like it did in the late 70s. And their numbers are always the same. 100+ Freshmen, an almost all-senior starting line-up, 3 - 4 deep at every position and a JV squad that has its own practice on Saturdays since most of those guys do not see the field on Friday. In short, the powers have been doing what they do.

 

Does this mean that publics do not work hard? Hell no. But the churn and discord and shuffling seems to have hurt the Jefferson County public schools - even Male. I recently talked in depth to the coaches and boosters of the Westport Middle school team at a KYMSFA playoff game. They said this would be the last time those young men played together. Why? Because they will scatter to multiple schools in the magnet system. That is no way to build programs. Programs start with flag football in the 1st grade, not with the new freshmen crop every year.

 

So now we have the latest gerrymandering effort by KHSAA. Maybe this will help Male and Manual - the two traditional public powers from Jefferson county. Maybe it will be another failed attempt. And yes, I mean 'another' given the lack of success of the efforts noted above. But in the end, odds are you have to go though the green monsters to be a (State) Champion. It has been that way for a long, long time. Making special, arbitrary rules won't stop that.

 

GREAT post! I will also add that although much I have heard much maligning of the JCPS, the assignment plans, busing, and Dr. Berman in particular, people aren't paying attention to the emergence of schools like Central, and the effect that plays on the traditional powers such as Male. A woman I work with was dead set on sending her child to Male, enrolled her into the right feeder schools from pre-K. But when the time came to make a commitment to a high school, they went and toured Central just for the heck of it and fell in love with what they offer. Seneca is a better school, in some respects, than it's getting credit for as well. Manual, in particular, is the hardest school to get into, public or private. Many parents don't even try to get into those schools any more. And the turmoil will continue for at least a few years, I feel. Who knows what will happen with a new Superintendent, or what the Board will decide is the direction of JCPS. There's a big resurgence of the "neighborhood school" philosophy, and that could very well negatively impact Male (in particular) even further. But parents want the choice to send their kids to the best school overall for their kids, and that includes athletics.

Maybe the L-ville publics should take a look at Cinci Colerain & see what they're doing. They've been successfully competing with the Cincinnati GCL schools for quite a while now & there doesn't seem to be any end in sight. Demographics are also similar to many of the Jefferson Cty publics.

 

They must be doing something right.

 

It all started with a dynamic coach named Kerry Combs, just like Boyle's success started with Chuck Smith; they knew how to build a program from the ground up, sold it to the community; the community bought in and the results are undeniable!

It all started with a dynamic coach named Kerry Combs, just like Boyle's success started with Chuck Smith; they knew how to build a program from the ground up, sold it to the community; the community bought in and the results are undeniable!

 

This is very true. Cincinnati Public Schools were doing nearly nothing against the GCL in football, but Combs made a big change to that. Smith is a very good example with what he did at Boyle as well and I think everyone is aware of what Mueller has been able to accomplish at Highlands. The saddest, but most true thing about this is that many coaches of this talent do not come along in the public school settings often. But it does take people with the personalities like Combs, Smith, and Mueller to really get public programs into strong positions, and until it happens, a lot of the results are going to be similar, if not the same until it does.