Some comments in a couple of the other FB threads got me wondering about this.

 

Surely the decision to move from 4 to 6 classes wasn't done without some forethought. After a reasonable period of time (say 2014, after which the new 4-year redistricting plan is set to expire), how do we measure success (or failure) of the "experiment?

 

New football programs are started (success).

 

Football programs are abolished (failure).

 

Overall attendance is up/down (success/failure).

 

The same handful of teams win the vast majority of state championships (succcess/failure?).

 

A bunch of new faces win a bunch of state championships (success/failure?).

 

Highlands loses a game (success/failure?).

 

Kentucky teams win a much higher percentage of games against high-powered out-of-state competition (success).

 

 

Someone help me out here. Are there easily measurable barometers for success or failure that we can analyze and with some degree of certainty say "yes we did", or "no we didn't"?

If more schools make more money because of expanded playoffs the KHSAA will say it is a success. I think we have two too many classes.

I think we might as well get over it guys, 6 classes is here to stay regardless if it's a success or a failure.

Just one man's opinion here...

 

Success is measured based on the number of different public school programs winning state titles. If we can't beat X and T, make more classes and at least other schools will have a chance to compete for other titles. Of course if this is the root for the change, then the system is too flawed to ever be successful.

 

Again, JMO.

Just one man's opinion here...

 

Success is measured based on the number of different public school programs winning state titles. If we can't beat X and T, make more classes and at least other schools will have a chance to compete for other titles. Of course if this is the root for the change, then the system is too flawed to ever be successful.

 

Again, JMO.

 

Personally I already think its a failure, and would guess KY is a laughing stock with other state's HS football fans (If they even notice?)? Six champions from a little over 200 football playing schools is rapidly approaching the "Give Everyone a Trophy" mentality IMO. Toss in the fact many of the supporters of the 6 class system would love nothing more than to add another class or probably two, to separate out the private schools and it could really get silly if they got their ways!! When you only need to best 30-some schools to win a state championship, and have winless teams making the "playoffs"; it's just too watered down for my tastes??

I would look at the brand of football being played and see how it compares to what we had. Of course this is an objective and individualistic response, but I think if the majority is pleased with the overall progress of KY football then it's a success. I couldn't imagine a time when the Trinitys, St. Xs, and Highlands of the state will not be strong threats to win their divisions, so I don't think other teams winning championships means alot to whether 6 classes was a success or not. I always took the classes as being an attempt to offer competitive balance which I think you have in the bottom 4 divisions, and to some extent in 5A and 6A.

 

It's going to be hard to compare a program to Trinity or Highlands, those kind of programs set the bar for excellence in KY through their dominance and tradition. I think the existence of super powers like that in the state is good for football because it provides a really good measuring stick for any program. Most programs probably won't grow to become the next Highlands, but it gives them something to keep trying for. I think we measure success in football in too shallow of terms as success in many places is having a good season or couple of seasons. I think that the current class systems gives more schools an opportunity to build a program and not just a good team or cluster of good teams for a short period of time. I think in 2014 or so, we could look and see how many programs have improved or declined, or if many have really changed at all before we could make a completely informed decision. JMO.

I am confused (which isn't unordinary for me) but I thought there was serious talk about going to 5 classes next year 2011? According to this thread we will be staying with 6 classes until atleast 2014? Someone please give me the facts about what class system we will be using in the near future. Thank you in advance!

Well, everything comes down to money, so I'd say if this current (six class) system generates more money for schools/the KHSAA, then it will be classified as a success; if not, then it won't be. Period. If more money is generated, I highly doubt that most of the powers that be in charge of making decisions regarding the number of football classes will give a flip about whether the product on the field is any better, or how other states view KY prep football, or how KY teams fare against non-KY competition.

 

Ca-ching, baby!

Six classes will be kept until at least 2014!

Some comments in a couple of the other FB threads got me wondering about this.

 

Surely the decision to move from 4 to 6 classes wasn't done without some forethought. After a reasonable period of time (say 2014, after which the new 4-year redistricting plan is set to expire), how do we measure success (or failure) of the "experiment?

 

New football programs are started (success).

 

Football programs are abolished (failure).

 

Overall attendance is up/down (success/failure).

 

The same handful of teams win the vast majority of state championships (succcess/failure?).

 

A bunch of new faces win a bunch of state championships (success/failure?).

 

Highlands loses a game (success/failure?).

 

Kentucky teams win a much higher percentage of games against high-powered out-of-state competition (success).

 

 

Someone help me out here. Are there easily measurable barometers for success or failure that we can analyze and with some degree of certainty say "yes we did", or "no we didn't"?

 

That's a fair question. I think there are a lot of measurable barometers, some of which you posted, to look at in determining whether it was a success.

 

Hopefully the number of kids participating in football will increase, because participation is the number one criteria of success in my opinion. Participation is what high school athletics is all about; it is the KHSAA's primary mission in my opinion.

That's a fair question. I think there are a lot of measurable barometers, some of which you posted, to look at in determining whether it was a success.

 

Hopefully the number of kids participating in football will increase, because participation is the number one criteria of success in my opinion. Participation is what high school athletics is all about; it is the KHSAA's primary mission in my opinion.

 

To pose a "devil's advocate" question: If kids weren't playing football when there were 4 classes, why would the switch to 6 classes increase that participation? I don't think that participation depends upon the number of classes. Theoretically, the number of schools playing football will remain similar, with some dropping the sport and others adding it. If schools, for instance, in 6A couldn't get kids to participate pre-6A, why would the participation level increase post-6A?

Failure.

To pose a "devil's advocate" question: If kids weren't playing football when there were 4 classes, why would the switch to 6 classes increase that participation? I don't think that participation depends upon the number of classes. Theoretically, the number of schools playing football will remain similar, with some dropping the sport and others adding it. If schools, for instance, in 6A couldn't get kids to participate pre-6A, why would the participation level increase post-6A?

 

The "thinking" is that teams going deeper into the playoffs creates greater interest and enthusiasm in the sport which should generate more kids wanting to be on the field and out of the hallways. With 6 classes, more teams win state championships, more teams make it to the state game and more teams make it deeper into the playoffs. Adults may look at that happening only because the system is watered down, but I'm not sure kids quite look at it that way. My son's pride and joy in being on three state championships in a row wasn't lessened by the fact he did it with the 6 class system in place. I'm sure that's the case with other kids that participated in teams that won state championships, were runner ups or were on teams that advanced deep into the playoffs.

 

While I hate to point out one team, because that could be an aberration, but Holmes recent success may be further evidence that the thinking has some validity. Because of the 6 class system, Holmes quite frankly has been able to avoid playing Highlands in the playoffs. Instead of the annual out in the first or second playoff game, they've done better and are a real contender I think to win 4A this year. Enthusiasm for football at Holmes has spiked I'm told. I don't know if the total number of kids has increased (hopefully it has); however, Holmes I'm told is getting kids to come out for football that in the past would have concentrated just on basketball. I give a lot of credit to their head coach for doing so, but I don't think there is any doubt that avoiding Highlands and getting deeper into the playoffs has helped Steve in his efforts.

 

I'd also offer that a lot of coaches agree with that thinking. Perhaps they only wanted more classes to make it easier to find jobs in other states as someone postulated earlier. I sincerely doubt that was the motivation behind a lot of high school coaches wanting more classes. Furthermore, I've heard coaches ask that the playoff districting be rotated so they don't always have to play a certain powerhouse team early in the playoffs. Some of those coaches believed that getting eliminated early was hurting their efforts to grow their programs.

 

Again, I don't know if the above "thinking" will prove to be above correct, but if I had a vote on the matter, I'd be willing to give it a shot to see. There are some pretty knowledgeable football people in this state that strongly believe that moving from 3 classes to 4 classes was a large factor in the improvement we've experienced in Ky high school football over the past couple of decades. I think we'd all agree that enthusiasm for high school football has increased dramatically, not only amongst adults but kids too. I don't have the numbers in front of me, so I'm sort of sticking my neck out here, but if I had to bet, I'd bet there are more high schools playing football now and more kids participating in football than there were when we only had 3 classes. There could be many reasons for it, but I don't think the increased number of teams participating deep into the playoffs can be totally discounted as a large contributing factor. The only downside I can see is the championships are somewhat watered down. But that's more of a problem for adults than the kids playing I think. I can live with it being watered down if the long term effect is greater participation.

 

Am I the only one that sees increased interest in football at schools that in the past used to be regarded as strictly "basketball schools"? If what I see is correct, what are the causes behind that increased interest in the sport? Better coaching, increased participation, better support from administration and better youth leagues quickly come to mind. Isn't it possible that advancing to the quarter, semifinal and state games helps make all those things happen? People like winning and being associated with and supporting winners. Kids like being on winning teams.

 

And if any one responds with the "then lets give everyone a trophy" or "then let's have 219 classes" response, I'll vomit in my coffee cup. Don't take things to totally illogical extremes. Perhaps 6 classes is one or even two too many in some folks minds, but I doubt it is in the minds of the kids that were on each of the 6 state champions last year.

 

Finally, I hope by now most folks have accepted the truism that the size of a school can have a big effect on the quality of football team fielded at most programs in most years. Which is why I think that the KHSAA should be cognizant of the size disparity within a class issue. There other things that affect the quality of a program, such as the money provided by a school for its football program, the number of asst coaches, the income per capita of the parents, rural vs urban issues, etc. But if folks are upset with the KHSAA's handling of the number of coaches, think how upset people would be if no school could provide more money to its football program than the lowest providing school; or they limited the number of coaches to the lowest number at any high school; or kids of wealthy parents either were ineligible or were prohibited from seeking special trainers or coaches or from going to clinics and camps; etc, etc.

 

I hope that answers your question as I've done so to the best of my abilities and knowledge.

Well, everything comes down to money, so I'd say if this current (six class) system generates more money for schools/the KHSAA, then it will be classified as a success; if not, then it won't be. Period. If more money is generated, I highly doubt that most of the powers that be in charge of making decisions regarding the number of football classes will give a flip about whether the product on the field is any better, or how other states view KY prep football, or how KY teams fare against non-KY competition.

 

Ca-ching, baby!

 

JB, this doesn't happen often, but I'll strongly disagree. If 6 classes results in participation in football increasing AND the KHSAA can afford to still provide 6 championships then I don't think the KHSAA will go back to 4 classes even if the KHSAA makes less money with 6 classes than they did with 4 classes. Money is obviously an issue with the KHSAA. It has to be with any organization needing to stay in operation and meeting a budget. But it is not the end all of end alls that you make it to be. Frankly if I was a KHSAA employee or Board member I'd be offended by your implication that all I care about is money in determining if 6 classes is a success.

I'm going to give a little credit to the Holmes coaching staff, administration, and players for their success. I'm sure for every Holmes, their an opposite side of the coin.