Later on in his career he wasn't know for his workout regiment, but that's not to say when he first started he wasn't a workout guy. Also, if I (a lean build, but not real athletic guy) can put on 15-20 lbs of muscle from simply working out for a couple months, I'm sure someone as athletic as Griffey could have easily done twice that from simple workouts.

You can't put on 15-20 pounds of muslce in a couple of months. You may have gained that much weight in 2 months but most of it wasn't muslce. And no one, I mean no one, is gaining twice that I don't care who they are or what they take. You couldn't take steriods and put on 30-40 pounds of muscle is a couple of months.

For the record I don't think Griffey took anything. But nothing surprises me anymore.

 

I generally try to give someone the benefit of the doubt.

Like was asked earlier, why would Griffey be the sole guy that has never been name dropped if he did it?

 

Conseco and other admitted users who have outted guys have never said a word about Jr....Why do you think that is, if he did them? You really expect people to believe that Griffey was doing them, and no one else ever saw it or knew? Come on now, if Griffey used, Conseco would have included him with the likes of Palmerio, McGwire, Sosa, etc...

 

He claimed to have educated and injected several players: Rafael Palmiero, Mark McGwire, Juan Gonzalez, Ivan Rodriguez, Roger Clemens and Jason Giambi among them. What do they all have in common? They were all his teammates. He never played on a team with Griffey. Canseco also said 85% of all major leaguers used them--how many have jumped up and said that they used and then outed others? Not very many. How many teammates have stepped forward and said that they know Griffey is clean?

I say no.

 

I'm not biased because he was on the Reds, I'm anything but a Reds fan.

You can't put on 15-20 pounds of muslce in a couple of months. You may have gained that much weight in 2 months but most of it wasn't muslce. And no one, I mean no one, is gaining twice that I don't care who they are or what they take. You couldn't take steriods and put on 30-40 pounds of muscle is a couple of months.

 

Look, I don't care if you believe me or not, but I went from an out of shape 160 to a very much in shape 175 in a little over 2 months.

 

As for Griffey, I meant over an entire offseason for him putting on that weight.

By no means does Griffey looked ripped in that picture, if anything he looks fat. But I guess since everyone else was doing it he did too...

The age argument is weak too, how many players hit thier prime before 28 or so? Not many. So therefore wouldn't there be more production from a guy in his thirties?

 

Its generally accepted that a major league hitter hits their prime at age 27 and remains there until 30-31.

 

The one thing that bothers me about Junior's numbers is the spike in homers from 27 to 45 at age 23 when all his other numbers stayed almost identical. Just got lucky more often that season? Perhaps. More likely is he got a lot stronger. Was it by natural means? Perhaps. There is no doubt he was a great player but he deserves no less scrutiny than any of the other players that played in that era that were never implicated in steroid use but still have doubt cast on their achievements. Others numbers have been doubted even though no one has any proof that they used PEDs, yet Junior gets a pass. I think it is more because of his personality than any hard evidence that he was clean.

Its generally accepted that a major league hitter hits their prime at age 27 and remains there until 30-31.

 

The one thing that bothers me about Junior's numbers is the spike in homers from 27 to 45 at age 23 when all his other numbers stayed almost identical. Just got lucky more often that season? Perhaps. More likely is he got a lot stronger. Was it by natural means? Perhaps. There is no doubt he was a great player but he deserves no less scrutiny than any of the other players that played in that era that were never implicated in steroid use but still have doubt cast on their achievements. Others numbers have been doubted even though no one has any proof that they used PEDs, yet Junior gets a pass. I think it is more because of his personality than any hard evidence that he was clean.

 

Couldn't it be that he just put it all together as he was entering his prime? I mean, did Pujols ever really enter his prime? He's been doing the same thing ever since he entered the league at age 21, same for Vlad, same for Jeter, etc. Superstars seem to hit their primes earlier in their careers, that's why they're stars.

 

And who exactly are these players that have had their numbers doubted without evidence?

Not really sure about Griffey. I hope he didn't use. When I read Canseco's book for whatever reason-I believed him. Looking back the only thing I thought was weird is that he sure was defensive about Roger Clemens not using steroids. (That was incorrect or a lie.)

 

The one that broke the camels back for me was Palmiero. I really liked him, and he didn't look like a user. When he went down, my naivete went out the window, and now I am just not certain.

An interesting hypothetical to consider with steroids...If they were available back in the "clean" days, the days of Mays, Aaron, Banks, Williams, Musial, etc...How many of them do you think would've done them? I don't think the number would be too awful different from those of the steroid era.

An interesting hypothetical to consider with steroids...If they were available back in the "clean" days, the days of Mays, Aaron, Banks, Williams, Musial, etc...How many of them do you think would've done them? I don't think the number would be too awful different from those of the steroid era.

No doubt they would have used. They may not admit it, but for many it was a means to make money.

 

We get all caught up in talking about the big names. Where it made a big difference were in the guys which juiced and it was the difference in them playing in AAA or playing in the majors. Those names we will very seldom ever hear of because they never approached a numerical milestone. If I knew it would be the difference in me being stuck in the minors or playing in the bigs for a few million, I would have taken the money and risked it... and in reality, what was the risk for these type guys besides health related? Nobody is ever going to remember them anyways.

An interesting hypothetical to consider with steroids...If they were available back in the "clean" days, the days of Mays, Aaron, Banks, Williams, Musial, etc...How many of them do you think would've done them? I don't think the number would be too awful different from those of the steroid era.

Great question and this is the part that always gets me about the steroid debate. I doubt the usage % would be any different. Before steroids it was "greenies", which Mays I know has been linked to. The bottomline is professional sports are EXTREMELY hard to make it in and therefore lots of people are always looking for an "edge". Now that the money to be made is so great I believe it's only increased the desire to find an "edge". Spend some time with guys in the minors---you get a better feel for how hard it is to make it to the big show and why PED's are very enticing.

 

But, if it were up to me, they'd be legal to use anyways.

Couldn't it be that he just put it all together as he was entering his prime? I mean, did Pujols ever really enter his prime? He's been doing the same thing ever since he entered the league at age 21, same for Vlad, same for Jeter, etc. Superstars seem to hit their primes earlier in their careers, that's why they're stars.

 

And who exactly are these players that have had their numbers doubted without evidence?

 

Pretty much anyone that had big seasons through that stretch. How do you view Jay Buhner and Edgar Martinez numbers? What about Nomar Garciaparra and Jeff Kent? What about Kevin Mitchell or Larry Walker? Ron Gant or Bobby Bonilla? None of those players has ever been implicated as using PEDs. How many of those players would you be willing to say were clean? Which ones were dirty? We have on idea for sure. Junior should be no different.

Pretty much anyone that had big seasons through that stretch. How do you view Jay Buhner and Edgar Martinez numbers? What about Nomar Garciaparra and Jeff Kent? What about Kevin Mitchell or Larry Walker? Ron Gant or Bobby Bonilla? None of those players has ever been implicated as using PEDs. How many of those players would you be willing to say were clean? Which ones were dirty? We have on idea for sure. Junior should be no different.

 

I'd say Nomar, Edgar, Kent, Walker, Gant, and Bonilla were all clean. Not sure about Mitchell because I really don't remember him very well. Buhner, I could have sworn has been linked to steroid use.

An interesting hypothetical to consider with steroids...If they were available back in the "clean" days, the days of Mays, Aaron, Banks, Williams, Musial, etc...How many of them do you think would've done them? I don't think the number would be too awful different from those of the steroid era.

 

Good point. A lot of people like to act like since that was considered the golden age of baseball that the players then were saints. That isn't the case, a lot of them would have taken any advantage they could get--its always been that way.

Great question and this is the part that always gets me about the steroid debate. I doubt the usage % would be any different. Before steroids it was "greenies", which Mays I know has been linked to. The bottomline is professional sports are EXTREMELY hard to make it in and therefore lots of people are always looking for an "edge". Now that the money to be made is so great I believe it's only increased the desire to find an "edge". Spend some time with guys in the minors---you get a better feel for how hard it is to make it to the big show and why PED's are very enticing.

 

But, if it were up to me, they'd be legal to use anyways.

 

That's my point. Everyone gets so up in arms about the steroid users, and I don't get why. And everyone can go look at my thoughts during Bonds' HR chase days, I had the same feelings then, so it's not just because you all are talking about Griffey. If it helps them perform better, and the only ones they're potentially hurting is themselves, I say go for it. I know I would've used them no question had I been fortunate enough to have the talent to play at that level.