Where did I dismiss anyone in such terms? I am always willing to listen to the opinions of others. So why are you so opposed to the bill?

 

Because I'm not of the belief that health insurance is a right for all. I believe it is something that everyone should be responsible for paying for themselves, not with government aide (i.e. my tax dollars).

 

Like I said in another thread, or maybe it was this one, it sounds like a great idea that would work if we lived in a utopian society, but we don't, we live in the real world. There will be rich, poor, the haves, the have nots, strong, weak, healthy, and sick. We're no different than any other animal species. What makes any species thrive and succeed is the basic survival of the fittest concept.

 

Now I'm not saying we shouldn't help those who are in need, but we must have a choice, or we lose freedom, which is the most important principal our country was founded on.

Why not?

 

They have such a great track record. I would find this amusing if it were not so serious. BTW, if you do believe it, what about the other 19.5 trillion?

Diminishing care, rising costs, longer waits, losing doctors, bankrupting the country, government completely taking over health (which I believe is the long term goal of this administration), taxes going through the roof, 2400 pages of a bill that I guarantee wasn't read by any of the people who voted for it, 16,000 new jobs and a $1 billion dollar budget increase to the IRS, increasing the size of our already oversized federal government, forcing/requiring it's citizens to purchase a product...what's next everyone has to buy a GM. I can probably think of some more but it's been a long day.

 

I am not scared of reform if it's a program that makes sense. Government control fixes very little if anything at all. Look at all of the current government run programs. They are all broken and broke.

 

I think those bolded are all legitimate concerns. I would also say almost all of those are fears would still be there if the bill failed and the status quo continued. Diminishing care ... already happening in some areas. Rising costs...definitely already a problem. Longer waits ... well, if doctors retire that could happen. Losing doctors ... we keep hearing this one and I don't doubt some docs who are financially set may leave practice; but I don't think any doctors are going to be working for minimum wage under this bill.

 

On the other hand

 

Bankrupting the country ... this bill will not do that. Government completely taking over health ... it took 100 years to get this bill passed so I highly doubt there is any chance of the government taking over health care. Taxes going though the roof ... we still have the power of the vote and we will control this within acceptable levels. Forcing people to buy a product (health insurance) ... and you fear this because ???? .....

Edited March 24, 201016 yr by Voice of Reason

Because I'm not of the belief that health insurance is a right for all. I believe it is something that everyone should be responsible for paying for themselves, not with government aide (i.e. my tax dollars).

 

Like I said in another thread, or maybe it was this one, it sounds like a great idea that would work if we lived in a utopian society, but we don't, we live in the real world. There will be rich, poor, the haves, the have nots, strong, weak, healthy, and sick. We're no different than any other animal species. What makes any species thrive and succeed is the basic survival of the fittest concept.

 

Now I'm not saying we shouldn't help those who are in need, but we must have a choice, or we lose freedom, which is the most important principal our country was founded on.

 

 

You know, what you say is true. But, it can be perceived (and is by many) that "utopian" means that everyone could care for themselves and we each would only be responsible for ourselves and those we choose. And, we don't live in that sort of utopia either.

You know, what you say is true. But, it can be perceived (and is by many) that "utopian" means that everyone could care for themselves and we each would only be responsible for ourselves and those we choose. And, we don't live in that sort of utopia either.

 

A true utopian society doesn't exist. In one, there would be no jobs, no government, just people. Everything people needed would be provided, with no real thought to how it got there. If you needed a cup of coffee, it would be there, there wouldn't be a store you had to buy it from, etc, etc. This type of healthcare is trying to accomplish that with regards to health insurance, and it's just not feasible IMO.

A true utopian society doesn't exist. In one, there would be no jobs, no government, just people. Everything people needed would be provided, with no real thought to how it got there. If you needed a cup of coffee, it would be there, there wouldn't be a store you had to buy it from, etc, etc. This type of healthcare is trying to accomplish that with regards to health insurance, and it's just not feasible IMO.

 

 

Agreed it doesn't and will never exist. I'm not sure if you're trying to educate me on that point...or really what. :lol: I'll try not to assume that you think I live in a world of daisys and sunshine.

 

I'll post more of what I think this bill is inteneded to do, but you guys won't like it, and frankly, I'm tired of posting fodder for you guys to pick apart. :lol:

Agreed it doesn't and will never exist. I'm not sure if you're trying to educate me on that point...or really what. :lol: I'll try not to assume that you think I live in a world of daisys and sunshine.

 

I'll post more of what I think this bill is inteneded to do, but you guys won't like it, and frankly, I'm tired of posting fodder for you guys to pick apart. :lol:

 

No, that wasn't my intent at all. :lol: Just trying to point out in general terms that the Utopian society that it seems President Obama and Congress are trying to create, will never exist.

I think those bolded are all legitimate concerns. I would also say almost all of those are fears if the bill failed and the status quo continued. Diminishing care ... already happening in some areas. - There will always be areas with substandard care. This bill does nothing to address that. It will however increase that problem. It goes hand in hand with the longer waits and losing doctors. Less doctors, more people going to the doctor = dimishing care and longer waits. Rising costs...definitely already a problem. Longer waits ... well, if doctors retire that could happen. Losing doctors ... we keep hearing this one and I don't doubt some docs who are financially set may leave practice; but I don't think any doctors are going to be working for minimum wage under this bill.

 

On the other hand

 

Bankrupting the country ... this bill will not do that. Got news for you, we are almost there. Add the cost of this bill to the already enormous speading and guess what? There is no money to pay for this. Government completely taking over health ... it took 100 years to get this bill passed so I highly doubt there is any chance of the government taking over health care. - It didn't take 100 years to pass this, it took 1 1/2 years. No one has made a serious push to pass this like Obama. What do you think will happen when private insurance companies can't turn a profit or at least a reasonable profit? They will stop offering health insurance. The only solution will be for the Feds to be the insurance. Taxes going though the roof ... we still have the power of the vote and we will control this within acceptable levels. Forcing people to buy a product (health insurance) ... and you fear this because ???? - Last time I check this was still a free country. The feds have no authority to tell it's citizens they have have to buy a product, PERIOD! It's not their job and it's not what they were designed to do......

Changes need to be made but the Dems didn't care what they passed as long as they passed something.

Changes need to be made but the Dems didn't care what they passed as long as they passed something.

Well, they had to pass it so we'd know what's in it...remember?

Over and done with now... up next jobs/energy?

Changes need to be made but the Dems didn't care what they passed as long as they passed something.

 

After all the debate over the past 1 1/2 years on this bill, I don't see how you can say they wanted to just pass something. As to it taking 1 1/2 years versus 100 years, I believe if you research it you will see that as far back as Teddy Roosevelt there have been serious efforts to overhaul our health care. TR made it the cornerstone proposal in his re-election campaign. Many other presidents have made health care reform major platforms in their campaigns and pursued it after elected. If Richard Nixon had not been forced to resign, we would almost surely have seen health care reform during his administration. In fact, many of the provisions in this bill were part of Nixon's plan. Of course, we all know Clinton also tried to reform health care but was firmly rejected in his efforts. McCain included quite a few of the provisions in this bill in his own proposals for health care reform. This is a long, long standing debate - not some 1 1/2 year old issue.

Over and done with now... up next jobs/energy?

Immigration Amnesty. Think of the voter fraud the Dems can conjure up.

Agreed it doesn't and will never exist. I'm not sure if you're trying to educate me on that point...or really what. :lol: I'll try not to assume that you think I live in a world of daisys and sunshine.

 

I'll post more of what I think this bill is inteneded to do, but you guys won't like it, and frankly, I'm tired of posting fodder for you guys to pick apart. :lol:

 

OK...here are my thoughts. Have at it. :lol:

 

I am as confused as many about what the details are in this bill. That's because I, like most Americans, have not read the entire bill, and the snippets that have been discussed aren't complete and usually presented with bias (either way). Unlike many, I don't believe that because I don't understand everything, it must be bad. I don't believe all the hyperbole thrown out by the media and the talking heads who have barely more knowledge than I. It may just be my nature, but I think that it's more appropriate to do something than do nothing.

 

I do understand that some who do not deserve to receive "free" healthcare will benefit. But I also, unlike many, believe that those are the minority and that the greater good is served in this bill.

 

I do not believe that I sacrifice any rights by the passage of this bill. I don't believe that the government is in some elaborate conspiracy to take over our constitutional rights.

 

Some may call me complacent, but I simply don't believe that government involvement is always a bad thing. I believe that in some cases it's necessary in order to ensure the best for ALL people involved.

 

I understand that the wealthier among us will be taxed. I guess I'm one of the fortunate ones in that I won't be. :lol: However, if I were, I wouldn't have a problem with it. Again, it's a matter of greater good.

 

I don't believe that Obama has any nefarious intent with his quest to effect health care reform. I do have some questions about others involved. But my reservations do not include that I think he's directing any nefarious intent.

 

I guess I never saw the day that I would look back and reflect on the struggles I personally experienced would be a benefit in understanding the benefits of this legislation. But, for once, I can truly say I've "walked in the shoes" of those who will benefit.

 

I think people grossly underestimate the nature of the demographic of those without health insurance. The truth is, you can't know unless you're told by them specifically, that the co-worker you share a cubical with has insurance or not. Many who are working are without health insurance for various reasons. Not all of those without insurance can be identified by their subsidized housing, free school lunch program participation, or EBT card. Many have homes, cars, and stable jobs.

 

There is much more to be done. But this is a start, and I'm glad Obama had the courage and the intestinal fortitude to see it through. Sometimes, something is better than nothing, which is what's happened over a series of decades.

 

If any one feels something has been rammed down their throat, then maybe they know now how I feel about the Bush administration ramming the military action in Iraq down mine. I can empathize with you, but I don't sympathize.

 

That's a bit of what I think. I could go on, but I don't want to cause the server to crash when everyone starts tearing it apart. :lol:

It may just be my nature, but I think that it's more appropriate to do something than do nothing.

 

Is it appropriate to do something even if it's wrong??

Is it appropriate to do something even if it's wrong??

 

No. But the vast majority in this country want something done about health insurance and about half think this bill is good. Obviously many don't believe this bill is wrong.