You've got Bengals fans that are sick of it and then if you read some of the posters on BGP you have those that would take Ted Bundy if he could kick.

 

Did I say that? What I have said is if they end up winning and being even better, then you won't hear anyone saying much negative about having those guys. Even you probably wouldn't have said anything then if those guys really helped. As I said before say if these guys do end up helping, and this team goes like 12 and 4. I seriously doubt AT THAT TIME, I will hear you say well I would rather them be 4 and 12 than have those guys on the team. The same people who might complain now about it, won't say a word about it if they end up helping the team in winnings more games and you know that. That is the point I am making with it. I don't like hearing people make a big deal out of it, because when it comes down to it. People won't end up caring if it ends up helping.

Think about the argument I just made. I said when Palmer had talented guys to throw to like those guys, he was just as good as them and putting up numbers like them. Those guys you mentioned in Big Ben plays in an offense now that is more wide open and better receivers. He has a TE and the receivers. Brees has a TE and the receivers, and Rivers a TE and receivers. You put those guys on this Bengals team, and do you think they put up the same numbers they have been? You be way off base if you think that. Its pretty simple as I said unless you might be one of the best QB's of all time like the Mannings, Favres, and Brady's, then you would need talent to put up the numbers. Palmer when he had the talent at receiver was great and one of the best in the NFL. Even you have to admit that he really has no one at receiver except Chad and he is not as great as he once was. He has NO TE AT ALL, and no really receiving threats out of the backfield.

 

So that is not being bias at all. If you look at the whole thing, you can see what I am talking about. Those guys wouldn't be able to put up much numbers either in this offense that we had last year. However Palmer has already proven with talent to throw to, he also can put up the numbers. So what I said is not way off base at all. Give him talent like some of those other guys, and you will see his numbers go back up to what they once was and like those guys have now. It can't be way off base when it has already happened when he has had the talent.

 

 

Dude comparing Palmer to Big Ben or Brees is laughable. Call in to ESPN radio and let them laugh in your face with that comment, please. I get it you love the Bengals, it doesn't change the fact that Palmer at best could be a fringe top 10 QB in the league, but he has never been and never will be a legit top 5. You're comparing him to two HOF'ers, Come on.:laugh:

Give Palmer the weapons those others have and he is as good as any.

Dude comparing Palmer to Big Ben or Brees is laughable. Call in to ESPN radio and let them laugh in your face with that comment, please. I get it you love the Bengals, it doesn't change the fact that Palmer at best could be a fringe top 10 QB in the league, but he has never been and never will be a legit top 5. You're comparing him to two HOF'ers, Come on.:laugh:

 

OK Dude, it is not a bad comparison at all with what I am saying. Back in 2005 and 2006 when Palmer had talent to throw to. Mostly everyone in the league would have taken Palmer over Big Ben, unless you were a Steelers fan. Shoot most people across America, and those ESPN guys you are talking about considered Palmer a top 5 QB at that time, and not a Rivers, Brees, or Big Ben. Guess what all changed though since then, those guys started getting more talent around them, while Palmer started losing talent around him. I mean those guys I mentioned wouldn't have their numbers either if they had to work with the same talent Palmer had to work with last year at Receiver. You also say to call in to ESPN and say what I just said, well most guys on ESPN still even say they believe Palmer can be a top QB again if they got more talent around him. So yeah I seriously doubt I would get laughed at for saying that. I mean your Super Bowl argument doesnt hold much weight considering both of them just have played on better overall teams. Shoot when the Steelers won their first Super Bowl with Big Ben, they did it despite Big Ben because he was not good at all in that game. Just shows how good of a team he was surrounded with.

 

I really don't know how you can think my argument is way off base, considering that when Palmer had talent he was considered a top 5 QB and was actually considered better than all three guys I mentioned at the time. So to say that if he had talent around him again, that he could put up those numbers again is not way of base at all. Especially considering that it has already happened. So he has already proven that he can.

OK Dude, it is not a bad comparison at all with what I am saying. Back in 2005 and 2006 when Palmer had talent to throw to. Mostly everyone in the league would have taken Palmer over Big Ben, unless you were a Steelers fan. Shoot most people across America, and those ESPN guys you are talking about considered Palmer a top 5 QB at that time, and not a Rivers, Brees, or Big Ben. Guess what all changed though since then, those guys started getting more talent around them, while Palmer started losing talent around him. I mean those guys I mentioned wouldn't have their numbers either if they had to work with the same talent Palmer had to work with last year at Receiver. You also say to call in to ESPN and say what I just said, well most guys on ESPN still even say they believe Palmer can be a top QB again if they got more talent around him. So yeah I seriously doubt I would get laughed at for saying that. I mean your Super Bowl argument doesnt hold much weight considering both of them just have played on better overall teams. Shoot when the Steelers won their first Super Bowl with Big Ben, they did it despite Big Ben because he was not good at all in that game. Just shows how good of a team he was surrounded with.

 

I really don't know how you can think my argument is way off base, considering that when Palmer had talent he was considered a top 5 QB and was actually considered better than all three guys I mentioned at the time. So to say that if he had talent around him again, that he could put up those numbers again is not way of base at all. Especially considering that it has already happened. So he has already proven that he can.

 

When Palmer had talent around him and was doing well he was considered better than those guys because Big Ben and Rivers were young and Brees was just starting to come into his own.

 

Yes, they would laugh at you. Palmer with or without talent has never been capable of having a Super Bowl like Brees just had or a game winning drive like Big Ben did last season in the Super Bowl. That's the difference in the two. I said I wouldn't argue Rivers, because I don't think he's in the league of Ben or Brees.

 

No one that isn't a Bengals fan or doesn't live around here would agree with you. No one. Well maybe Carson's family. Carson probably wouldn't even agree with you.

 

As for talent, Brees has guys that fit a system, but no one that is as good as Chad was back in the day, and maybe no one as good as TJ. He makes them look that way, but who had ever heard of Colston before Brees? Devery Henderson was average before DB arrived? It's not like the Saints have all the talent in the world.

 

The throws Brees and Big Ben have made over the years are something Carson couldn't do. Look at Brees' precision in the Super Bowl, a couple of inches here and there and it's picked on alot of those throws. Those would have been bad throws for most QB's but an elite guy fits it into the windows. Carson doesn't complete that pass to Holmes last year or the game winner Big Ben hit this year near the end of the season.

 

Carson had weapons around him outside and did nothing. Sure he got hurt in the playoffs, but what about the other years? Chad, TJ, and Chris Henry were possibly better or at least just as good as the WR's that Brees has had to work with.

 

It's not about numbers either. If it is then I guess Matt Schaub is the best QB in the league. Regular season stats are garbage for comparing QBs, it's about the playoffs. Carson can barely get his team there, let alone thrive in it. And there really isn't that much difference in the amount of talent on the Saints and the Bengals IMO. Saints have more talent, but not by as much as you'd like to think. Drew Brees changes that team from a 4-5 win team to a really good one. Carson Palmer would not even be in the playoffs IMO if the roles were reversed. Please take off the Black and Orange sunglasses man. Big Ben and Brees are future HOF'ers, unless Palmer makes huge strides he will probably never even get a HOF vote.

And for the last time it's not about numbers!!!! That's not how most people measure QBs. Was Timmy Chang a better QB than Peyton Manning in college?

OK Dude, it is not a bad comparison at all with what I am saying. Back in 2005 and 2006 when Palmer had talent to throw to. Mostly everyone in the league would have taken Palmer over Big Ben, unless you were a Steelers fan. Shoot most people across America, and those ESPN guys you are talking about considered Palmer a top 5 QB at that time, and not a Rivers, Brees, or Big Ben. Guess what all changed though since then, those guys started getting more talent around them, while Palmer started losing talent around him. I mean those guys I mentioned wouldn't have their numbers either if they had to work with the same talent Palmer had to work with last year at Receiver. You also say to call in to ESPN and say what I just said, well most guys on ESPN still even say they believe Palmer can be a top QB again if they got more talent around him. So yeah I seriously doubt I would get laughed at for saying that. I mean your Super Bowl argument doesnt hold much weight considering both of them just have played on better overall teams. Shoot when the Steelers won their first Super Bowl with Big Ben, they did it despite Big Ben because he was not good at all in that game. Just shows how good of a team he was surrounded with.

 

I really don't know how you can think my argument is way off base, considering that when Palmer had talent he was considered a top 5 QB and was actually considered better than all three guys I mentioned at the time. So to say that if he had talent around him again, that he could put up those numbers again is not way of base at all. Especially considering that it has already happened. So he has already proven that he can.

 

You're also ignoring the fact that Carson Palmer has suffered some signifcant injuries in those 4 years since he was Top 5 material. He simply isn't the same guy physically--almost every scout and analyst has said this for the last couple of years. Its sad but he'll probably never be as good as what he could have been without the injuries. He can be a competent quarterback for a few more years but his days as one of the best in the league are behind him, barring surrounding him with a ridiulous amount of talent and a new offensive system--and we both know the Bengals aren't going to do that.

You're also ignoring the fact that Carson Palmer has suffered some signifcant injuries in those 4 years since he was Top 5 material. He simply isn't the same guy physically--almost every scout and analyst has said this for the last couple of years. Its sad but he'll probably never be as good as what he could have been without the injuries. He can be a competent quarterback for a few more years but his days as one of the best in the league are behind him, barring surrounding him with a ridiulous amount of talent and a new offensive system--and we both know the Bengals aren't going to do that.

 

Most scouts or analysis on most of the major sport channels, have said they even don't see anything wrong with Palmer physically. Shoot most have even said, if they just put talent around him that he will be back to what he was.

And for the last time it's not about numbers!!!! That's not how most people measure QBs. Was Timmy Chang a better QB than Peyton Manning in college?

 

I guess Trent Dilfer is better than Dan Marino.

When Palmer had talent around him and was doing well he was considered better than those guys because Big Ben and Rivers were young and Brees was just starting to come into his own.

 

Yes, they would laugh at you. Palmer with or without talent has never been capable of having a Super Bowl like Brees just had or a game winning drive like Big Ben did last season in the Super Bowl. That's the difference in the two. I said I wouldn't argue Rivers, because I don't think he's in the league of Ben or Brees.

 

No one that isn't a Bengals fan or doesn't live around here would agree with you. No one. Well maybe Carson's family. Carson probably wouldn't even agree with you.

 

As for talent, Brees has guys that fit a system, but no one that is as good as Chad was back in the day, and maybe no one as good as TJ. He makes them look that way, but who had ever heard of Colston before Brees? Devery Henderson was average before DB arrived? It's not like the Saints have all the talent in the world.

 

The throws Brees and Big Ben have made over the years are something Carson couldn't do. Look at Brees' precision in the Super Bowl, a couple of inches here and there and it's picked on alot of those throws. Those would have been bad throws for most QB's but an elite guy fits it into the windows. Carson doesn't complete that pass to Holmes last year or the game winner Big Ben hit this year near the end of the season.

 

Carson had weapons around him outside and did nothing. Sure he got hurt in the playoffs, but what about the other years? Chad, TJ, and Chris Henry were possibly better or at least just as good as the WR's that Brees has had to work with.

 

It's not about numbers either. If it is then I guess Matt Schaub is the best QB in the league. Regular season stats are garbage for comparing QBs, it's about the playoffs. Carson can barely get his team there, let alone thrive in it. And there really isn't that much difference in the amount of talent on the Saints and the Bengals IMO. Saints have more talent, but not by as much as you'd like to think. Drew Brees changes that team from a 4-5 win team to a really good one. Carson Palmer would not even be in the playoffs IMO if the roles were reversed. Please take off the Black and Orange sunglasses man. Big Ben and Brees are future HOF'ers, unless Palmer makes huge strides he will probably never even get a HOF vote.

 

In 2005 Big Ben was in his second year as the starting QB. Guess what so was Palmer. So the whole excuse about him being younger doesn't hold much weight. Even though Big Ben won the Super Bowl that year, mostly everyone in America at that time would have still taken Palmer over Big Ben unless they were a Steelers fan. You talk about these guys fitting passes into tight windows. What do you think Palmer was doing during those years. I mean most people even talked about how accurate of a thrower Palmer was, and how he could make all the throws. With that talent he went to the Pro Bowl in 2005, and the year after he hurt his knee he still made the Pro Bowl and even wont he Pro Bowl MVP. So pretty safe to say, that he probably pretty good at making throws. In 2006 he put his team in position to what should have been making the playoffs. However special teams messed that up for them in two straight games. You have to have the special teams come through if you want to do anything, Brees still wouldn't have been to the Super Bowl if his special teams didn't come through.

 

You talk about big moments when guys having to make game winnings drives and stuff. Well Palmer has actually done that in his career too. How many times have we seen Palmer take them down for a game winning drive, only to see the special teams then end up missing up the extra point, or a field goal. Or even this past year where defense decides to give up a 80 yard touchdown on a tip pass to lose the game for them. All these other QB's when they have put their team in position to win, the other guys on their team then like special teams have stepped up and finished the job. I wish their was a stat for blown wins by the team after the QB put them in position to win or tie at the the end. Palmer would have to be in the lead for that, because the Bengals have blown in countless times, where he could have had a game winning drive in his record.

 

You talk about Colston and he was never heard of before Brees. Well you do realize he was not playing for the Saints before he got there. Brees was already on the team when they drafted him. Same thing goes with Henderson I believe. Guess what they also gave Brees a TE, and receiving threats out of the back field. Do you really want to compare who had more to work with lately? You talk about talent. Well defensively I give you the Bengals have more talent than the Saints. However on offense it is not even close on the talent level, and that is the one thing that effects how the QB looks the most.

 

I mean you want to make excuses up for why Palmer was the better QB out of those guys back in 2005 and 2006. Then the same excuses can be applied for why those QB's have been better than Palmer since then. I mean at this moment I am not saying Palmer is as good as them anymore. What I am saying if you put talent around them like those guys have right now, and people will be talking about him being one of the better QB's in the NFL just like those guys. As I said before its hard for me to be way off base on this, when there is history to show when he has talent he is considered one of the best in the NFL. When he had talent he was even considered better than those guys.

 

Neither one of us are going to win this argument right now. Cause my argument is based on if they put talent around him. However I do think if they also get a TO, and say draft a TE with that first pick. That he then will have enojgh talent around him again to do really well like he us to. So if they do these things, and he still does not do that great. Then feel free to bring up this thread again in the future and give me as much crow as you want, and I will even change my avatar to whatever you want. However if I end up being right and he is talked about as being one of the best in the NFL again. Then you have to change it to what I want. Deal?

Did I say that? What I have said is if they end up winning and being even better, then you won't hear anyone saying much negative about having those guys. Even you probably wouldn't have said anything then if those guys really helped. As I said before say if these guys do end up helping, and this team goes like 12 and 4. I seriously doubt AT THAT TIME, I will hear you say well I would rather them be 4 and 12 than have those guys on the team. The same people who might complain now about it, won't say a word about it if they end up helping the team in winnings more games and you know that. That is the point I am making with it. I don't like hearing people make a big deal out of it, because when it comes down to it. People won't end up caring if it ends up helping.

 

When they go 12-4 come talk to me :ohbrother:. How many times in history have they done that?

 

Neither one of us are going to win this argument right now. Cause my argument is based on if they put talent around him. However I do think if they also get a TO, and say draft a TE with that first pick. That he then will have enojgh talent around him again to do really well like he us to. So if they do these things, and he still does not do that great. Then feel free to bring up this thread again in the future and give me as much crow as you want, and I will even change my avatar to whatever you want. However if I end up being right and he is talked about as being one of the best in the NFL again. Then you have to change it to what I want. Deal?

 

Deal. If people are comparing him to Drew Brees and Big Ben, I'll change my avatar to whatever you like. Not going to happen though, because to be in their league you have to win a Super Bowl.

 

Stats don't count in this. If Palmer has a great season statistically and the Bengals are not a serious threat to win the AFC and Super Bowl, then he will be what I said he was.....Matt Schaub.

 

If you consider that to be a loss for you (it is considering you think Palmer is the equivilant to Brees) then you have a deal. Pro Bowl and yardage do not count by themselves. For you to win this avatar bet Palmer needs:

 

-To reach a minimum of the AFC Title game

-Pro Bowl original selection, not a crappy alternate.

-Comparable stats to Brees, Big Ben, and Rivers, topping at least one of them in 3 of 4 statistical categories (TD to INT ratio, Completion %, yardage, QB rating).

 

That's pretty simple and should be no problem for Palmer since he has an infinite supply of weapons at his disposal now. Of course, without adding TO or another WR there is no point, considering poor lil' Palmer can't do anything without a boat load of proven targets.....Though Brees, Mannings, and Brady have done it time and again.

 

Deal? I think that's fair.

When they go 12-4 come talk to me :ohbrother:. How many times in history have they done that?

 

I was just using that as example. If those guys do end up making the team a better team than last years 10 and 6 team. I really seriously doubt we will hear anyone at that time, say I don't care that we are in the playoffs. I rather these guys not be on the team. You know as well as I do, we won't really hear anyone say that if it does help the team out. Yes it is going to bring a off season long controversy, however once the season comes and if it does help out. There won't be any more talk about it.

 

Yeah I would much rather the Bengals have a team full of good guys, who don't get in trouble. However I also know how things will be, if this does help the team out. The same people who are talking about class, and doing the right thing now. Won't be saying a word about it then. So please don't tell me I am wrong for not caring to much if they get these guys, because all these people telling me this won't be saying anything either if it helps. When it comes down to it, all the Bengal fans who are against it right now. Won't have a word to say about it once the season starts if it really is helping the team out. Is that right? No its not, but that is just how it is and you know it.

Most scouts or analysis on most of the major sport channels, have said they even don't see anything wrong with Palmer physically. Shoot most have even said, if they just put talent around him that he will be back to what he was.

 

If you think that his accuracy and velocity of his throws is the same as it was in 2005-06 you are delusional. That has nothing to do with his receivers. Plus he was fortunate enough to have one of the best running games in the league last season that should have been able to offset some of the lack of depth at wide receiver. He's a good quarterback but he's not elite and probably won't be again.

 

You talk about big moments when guys having to make game winnings drives and stuff. Well Palmer has actually done that in his career too. How many times have we seen Palmer take them down for a game winning drive, only to see the special teams then end up missing up the extra point, or a field goal. Or even this past year where defense decides to give up a 80 yard touchdown on a tip pass to lose the game for them. All these other QB's when they have put their team in position to win, the other guys on their team then like special teams have stepped up and finished the job. I wish their was a stat for blown wins by the team after the QB put them in position to win or tie at the the end. Palmer would have to be in the lead for that, because the Bengals have blown in countless times, where he could have had a game winning drive in his record.

 

You talk about Colston and he was never heard of before Brees. Well you do realize he was not playing for the Saints before he got there. Brees was already on the team when they drafted him. Same thing goes with Henderson I believe. Guess what they also gave Brees a TE, and receiving threats out of the back field. Do you really want to compare who had more to work with lately? You talk about talent. Well defensively I give you the Bengals have more talent than the Saints. However on offense it is not even close on the talent level, and that is the one thing that effects how the QB looks the most.

 

I mean you want to make excuses up for why Palmer was the better QB out of those guys back in 2005 and 2006. Then the same excuses can be applied for why those QB's have been better than Palmer since then. I mean at this moment I am not saying Palmer is as good as them anymore. What I am saying if you put talent around them like those guys have right now, and people will be talking about him being one of the better QB's in the NFL just like those guys. As I said before its hard for me to be way off base on this, when there is history to show when he has talent he is considered one of the best in the NFL. When he had talent he was even considered better than those guys.

 

To the 1st paragraph....wake me up when Palmer leads one of this historic drives in the playoffs. Vince Young has had some game winning drives in the NFL, is he on par with Drew Brees as well?

 

2nd Paragrah....Colston was unheard of before the Saints drafted him. Henderson had been in the league before Brees was in NO I believe and had not performed. Shockey hasn't really been healthy, though I will say that he is good. Not his old self, but good. The RB's are a wash. RB is a dime a dozen in the NFL unless you're talking about Chris Johnson or something.

 

3rd Paragraph...Palmer was better than those guys? Don't seem to remember that. Rivers was pretty good in San Deigo, Big Ben has done nothing but win in the NFL, and Rivers hadn't even played much then. I don't see the argument really. Remind me how many playoff games Palmer has won?