If you think that his accuracy and velocity of his throws is the same as it was in 2005-06 you are delusional. That has nothing to do with his receivers. Plus he was fortunate enough to have one of the best running games in the league last season that should have been able to offset some of the lack of depth at wide receiver. He's a good quarterback but he's not elite and probably won't be again.

 

Was he ever elite? Stallworth and Swann made Bradshaw a HOF'er. To me, Chad and TJ made Carson a Pro Bowler. Sure he's damaged goods, but it's odd that it all went away from him at the same time TJ left and Chad got old.......

 

JMO though? AJG how do you feel about it?

Deal. If people are comparing him to Drew Brees and Big Ben, I'll change my avatar to whatever you like. Not going to happen though, because to be in their league you have to win a Super Bowl.

 

Stats don't count in this. If Palmer has a great season statistically and the Bengals are not a serious threat to win the AFC and Super Bowl, then he will be what I said he was.....Matt Schaub.

 

If you consider that to be a loss for you (it is considering you think Palmer is the equivilant to Brees) then you have a deal. Pro Bowl and yardage do not count by themselves. For you to win this avatar bet Palmer needs:

 

-To reach a minimum of the AFC Title game

-Pro Bowl original selection, not a crappy alternate.

-Comparable stats to Brees, Big Ben, and Rivers, topping at least one of them in 3 of 4 statistical categories (TD to INT ratio, Completion %, yardage, QB rating).

 

That's pretty simple and should be no problem for Palmer since he has an infinite supply of weapons at his disposal now. Of course, without adding TO or another WR there is no point, considering poor lil' Palmer can't do anything without a boat load of proven targets.....Though Brees, Mannings, and Brady have done it time and again.

 

Deal? I think that's fair.

 

Yes you have a deal. :thumb:

 

Which by the way I don't think you should throw Brees into the category of doing it time and time again without having the talent. Didn't they miss the playoffs the last two seasons before this one? Brees has better overall WR's and a TE. Not to mention receiving threats out of the backfield. Not to mention a GREAT offensive mind for a coach. So lets not act like he is working with nothing. Brady basically during his Super Bowls didn't have much to work with. Actually the one Super Bowl he actually had a lot of talent to work with he lost. But he is someone who has done it without having much to work with. Manning and Brady and Favre are guys who have done it. Not Brees. So lets not act like Brees has done this too. There is a reason why it took Brees so long to really be a top notch QB and to find his niche. You know during the time when Palmer was talked about as top 5, and you used the excuse that Brees was just starting to come into his own. And guess what that reason was for what took him awhile to come into his own? It was because he didn't have the most talent around him at first. :thumb:

Yes you have a deal. :thumb:

 

Which by the way I don't think you should throw Brees into the category of doing it time and time again without having the talent. Didn't they miss the playoffs the last two seasons before this one? Brees has better overall WR's and a TE. Not to mention receiving threats out of the backfield. Not to mention a GREAT offensive mind for a coach. So lets not act like he is working with nothing. Brady basically during his Super Bowls didn't have much to work with. Actually the one Super Bowl he actually had a lot of talent to work with he lost. But he is someone who has done it without having much to work with. Manning and Brady and Favre are guys who have done it. Not Brees. So lets not act like Brees has done this too. There is a reason why it took Brees so long to really be a top notch QB and to find his niche. You know during the time when Palmer was talked about as top 5, and you used the excuse that Brees was just starting to come into his own. And guess what that reason was for what took him awhile to come into his own? It was because he didn't have the most talent around him at first. :thumb:

 

I'm sorry but the Saints are not an overly talented team. Spin it however you want, but to be a Super Bowl champion they are rather pedestrian talent wise. Better than alot of teams, but not the world beating talent you make them out to be.

 

And IMO it took Brees longer because he's a small guy. He had to learn how to play in the NFL because it's different for a 5'11" guy than it is a guy that's 6'4". That's not an excuse, heck that's why small QB's don't get drafted high on an annual basis.

I was just using that as example. If those guys do end up making the team a better team than last years 10 and 6 team. I really seriously doubt we will hear anyone at that time, say I don't care that we are in the playoffs. I rather these guys not be on the team. You know as well as I do, we won't really hear anyone say that if it does help the team out. Yes it is going to bring a off season long controversy, however once the season comes and if it does help out. There won't be any more talk about it.

 

Yeah I would much rather the Bengals have a team full of good guys, who don't get in trouble. However I also know how things will be, if this does help the team out. The same people who are talking about class, and doing the right thing now. Won't be saying a word about it then. So please don't tell me I am wrong for not caring to much if they get these guys, because all these people telling me this won't be saying anything either if it helps. When it comes down to it, all the Bengal fans who are against it right now. Won't have a word to say about it once the season starts if it really is helping the team out. Is that right? No its not, but that is just how it is and you know it.

 

With that logic if it doesn't work out I guess you will embrace being one of the laughing stocks in sports because not only do you loose but you loose chasing criminals hoping they will take you to the promise land.

To the 1st paragraph....wake me up when Palmer leads one of this historic drives in the playoffs. Vince Young has had some game winning drives in the NFL, is he on par with Drew Brees as well?

 

2nd Paragrah....Colston was unheard of before the Saints drafted him. Henderson had been in the league before Brees was in NO I believe and had not performed. Shockey hasn't really been healthy, though I will say that he is good. Not his old self, but good. The RB's are a wash. RB is a dime a dozen in the NFL unless you're talking about Chris Johnson or something.

 

3rd Paragraph...Palmer was better than those guys? Don't seem to remember that. Rivers was pretty good in San Deigo, Big Ben has done nothing but win in the NFL, and Rivers hadn't even played much then. I don't see the argument really. Remind me how many playoff games Palmer has won?

 

So since Colston was unheard of an a 7th round pick that means he was not good coming out? Shoot I guess we can say the same thing about T.J. then right? He was a 7th round pick and had done nothing until Palmer became the starting QB...:sssh: Not to mention to say the RB's are a wash? Are you serious? Yeah they might be a wash when it comes to running the ball. However it is not even close when it comes to receiving threats for the QB to throw the ball to. How many long plays did Brees have just by throwing a screen or some kind of a pass to runningback. I think I remember two screen passes that went for touchdowns one in the NFC Championship and one in the Super Bowl. You don't see the Bengals backs as receiving threats at all.

 

If you go back to the end of the 2006 season. Basically everyone in the NFL would have taken Palmer over Big Ben, Rivers, or Brees at that point. I really don't know how you can even argue against that. Unlike you though I will admit since 2007 most people would definitely take those guys over Palmer. However before the 2007 season, most people throughout the NFL considered Palmer the better QB over those guys. You keep bringing up playoff wins and that stuff. Do you really want to get into who just has played on better overall teams during their times? That is not a good argument to use at all. If you want to use that argument, I guess then as someone else said. You consider Trent Dilfer a better QB than Dan Marino. I mean since Dilfer had the ultimate success in winning the Super Bowl, that must mean he is better too right? Up until the 2007 season, those guys were not considered better QB's than Palmer at all. Big Ben had a super bowl ring, and still most teams at that time would have taken Palmer over him.

Was he ever elite? Stallworth and Swann made Bradshaw a HOF'er. To me, Chad and TJ made Carson a Pro Bowler. Sure he's damaged goods, but it's odd that it all went away from him at the same time TJ left and Chad got old.......

 

JMO though? AJG how do you feel about it?

 

 

 

Maybe again was the wrong word. He was a very good young quarterback that looked like he had the tools to be one of the elite quarterbacks in the league. I think the injuries have been just as, if not more responsible than the receiver talent in his inability to reach that level. Again, I think he's a competent quarterback that can you can win with. I just don't think he's ever going to be an All-Pro guy. His throws just haven't been the same in accuracy and velocity--that has nothing to do with his receivers.

I'm sorry but the Saints are not an overly talented team. Spin it however you want, but to be a Super Bowl champion they are rather pedestrian talent wise. Better than alot of teams, but not the world beating talent you make them out to be.

 

And IMO it took Brees longer because he's a small guy. He had to learn how to play in the NFL because it's different for a 5'11" guy than it is a guy that's 6'4". That's not an excuse, heck that's why small QB's don't get drafted high on an annual basis.

 

:laugh: If that is not an excuse. Then I guess mine is not an excuse either. Put more talent around Palmer again, and he will have the numbers that he use to. He also will have people talking about him being one of the best in the league again.

So since Colston was unheard of an a 7th round pick that means he was not good coming out? Shoot I guess we can say the same thing about T.J. then right? He was a 7th round pick and had done nothing until Palmer became the starting QB...:sssh: Not to mention to say the RB's are a wash? Are you serious? Yeah they might be a wash when it comes to running the ball. However it is not even close when it comes to receiving threats for the QB to throw the ball to. How many long plays did Brees have just by throwing a screen or some kind of a pass to runningback. I think I remember two screen passes that went for touchdowns one in the NFC Championship and one in the Super Bowl. You don't see the Bengals backs as receiving threats at all.

 

If you go back to the end of the 2006 season. Basically everyone in the NFL would have taken Palmer over Big Ben, Rivers, or Brees at that point. I really don't know how you can even argue against that. Unlike you though I will admit since 2007 most people would definitely take those guys over Palmer. However before the 2007 season, most people throughout the NFL considered Palmer the better QB over those guys. You keep bringing up playoff wins and that stuff. Do you really want to get into who just has played on better overall teams during their times? That is not a good argument to use at all. If you want to use that argument, I guess then as someone else said. You consider Trent Dilfer a better QB than Dan Marino. I mean since Dilfer had the ultimate success in winning the Super Bowl, that must mean he is better too right? Up until the 2007 season, those guys were not considered better QB's than Palmer at all. Big Ben had a super bowl ring, and still most teams at that time would have taken Palmer over him.

 

Most 7th rounders do not become instant impact guys in the NFL.

 

What I meant by RB's are a wash is that I hate that argument. The Bengals could have guys like Pierre Thomas if they wanted. Plenty of guys who are good out of the back field coming through the ranks. They want guys that run the rock first, so who cares? Those short passes are the Saints running game so what's the difference. They don't make or break Drew Brees.

 

What I'm saying about Palmer is that he was fools gold. Many guys do well once they get their feet wet in the NFL and then teams figure them out. Drew Bledsoe was suppose to be an all NFL type guy his first coulple of years in New England. Marc Bulger slung his way to a few Pro Bowls. But, teams figure QB's out. The Elite ones continue to progress and become better and better. Average QB's like Palmer do not. Palmer has the tools, but being an Elite, Hall of Fame QB is obviously not for everyone.

 

As for losing, Palmer is a huge part in that is he not? Or does he get a pass? He's a part of the Bengals, and while he hasn't been a part of the problem it's not like he's been the solution either.

:laugh: If that is not an excuse. Then I guess mine is not an excuse either. Put more talent around Palmer again, and he will have the numbers that he use to. He also will have people talking about him being one of the best in the league again.

 

Not if his accuracy and velocity don't come back. That has nothing to do with his receivers. He does not throw the ball the same as he used to, plus his mobility went from being average/slightly below average to poor.

:laugh: If that is not an excuse. Then I guess mine is not an excuse either. Put more talent around Palmer again, and he will have the numbers that he use to. He also will have people talking about him being one of the best in the league again.

 

Fine man you know it all. 5'11" QBs are a dime a dozen in the NFL. Why would they want a bigger guy any way?

 

As for talent, if you call a drug addict converte QB and a 50 year old WR a boatload of talent, I cannot wait until this season.

 

Get your popcorn ready it's gonna be a show......:popcorn:

Maybe again was the wrong word. He was a very good young quarterback that looked like he had the tools to be one of the elite quarterbacks in the league. I think the injuries have been just as, if not more responsible than the receiver talent in his inability to reach that level. Again, I think he's a competent quarterback that can you can win with. I just don't think he's ever going to be an All-Pro guy. His throws just haven't been the same in accuracy and velocity--that has nothing to do with his receivers.

 

I can buy that. I think that's a very level-headed and realistic approach. :thumb:

With that logic if it doesn't work out I guess you will embrace being one of the laughing stocks in sports because not only do you loose but you loose chasing criminals hoping they will take you to the promise land.

 

I am just tired of people acting like they are so good and they care about having class, and are so against having these guys. People try to act like on here that they are against these kinds of things and how it is wrong and sets a bad example. Yet it will be THESE SAME PEOPLE who won't be having anything bad to say about it, if it does help them out. They will be as happy as can be, and won't be thinking about what it looks like or what kind of example is sets. I am just thinking right now what people will think if it does help them out. You might argue with me now about it, however you know people will stop being against it if it helps. That is just how it is in today's society. Its not right, just just how it is.

 

It basically comes down to this. This is how the Bengals are going to do things. So either just have to get use to it and deal with it. Or just simply find a new team to like. If you do still choose to cheer for the Bengals, you probably will be right there along with everyone else as happy as can be if they do win and do better even with those guys on the team.

Fine man you know it all. 5'11" QBs are a dime a dozen in the NFL. Why would they want a bigger guy any way?

 

As for talent, if you call a drug addict converte QB and a 50 year old WR a boatload of talent, I cannot wait until this season.

 

Get your popcorn ready it's gonna be a show......:popcorn:

 

You really like putting words in people's mouth's don't you. You have said people were saying they will be Super Bowl favorites. You acted like people thought just signing Matt Jones would make this team better. Now your saying that I have said that it will give them a boatload of talent? What I have said is it that it definitely will give them more talent in the passing game than last year. I think just with that upgrade in talent alone, would be good enough to get Palmer back up there. Never said it would be superstar talent, but that is how confident I am, in that just upgrading the talent at reciever like that will do. Will get Palmer back on track. :thumb:

AJG and CCC - you're wasting your time with FC. Unless you proclaim Palmer as an elite QB whose past woes (and any future ones) are entirely the result of a lack of surrounding talent, you are wrong. None of it is Palmer's fault. None of the lack of WR production has to to with Palmer - it is all on the WR's. Or a poor OL. Or the OC. Or RB's not catching balls out of the backfield. All Palmer needs to get back on track and reclaim his prior "elite" status (assuming he ever had this title, which of course he did not) alongside Brees and Ben and Montana is a couple of stud WR's like the incomparably underwhelming Matt Jones and an end-of-his-career TO. But, just remember this - if he ends up having yet another mediocre year in 2010 it will be because Jones and TO and Caldwell and Chad and (insert name) let him down. Palmer is Canton material. Your failure is recognize this is disappointing. :lol:

AJG and CCC - you're wasting your time with FC. Unless you proclaim Palmer as an elite QB whose past woes (and any future ones) are entirely the result of a lack of surrounding talent, you are wrong. None of it is Palmer's fault. None of the lack of WR production has to to with Palmer - it is all on the WR's. Or a poor OL. Or the OC. Or RB's not catching balls out of the backfield. All Palmer needs to get back on track and reclaim his prior "elite" status (assuming he ever had this title, which of course he did not) alongside Brees and Ben and Montana is a couple of stud WR's like the incomparably underwhelming Matt Jones and an end-of-his-career TO. But, just remember this - if he ends up having yet another mediocre year in 2010 it will be because Jones and TO and Caldwell and Chad and (insert name) let him down. Palmer is Canton material. Your failure is recognize this is disappointing. :lol:

 

See I knew you would end up reading and responding. You just can't stay away. That is very nice of you. :jump::banana: