What I can't get at is the schools who sponsor it and don't really compete with public schools.

What I can't get at is the schools who sponsor it and don't really compete with public schools.

I'm sure you meant private.

 

This is probably how the thinking goes... For state titles, especially non-football sports, you're always going to be competing with privates. Also, solidarity is an issue, particularly when you know the other public school is better than yours and still has trouble making it past the private school.

 

These are not my views, just looking to explain behavior.

But if Manual wouldn't take the best students away from schools like Iroquois and Southern they MAY have better numbers for football as well.

 

Kind of a convenient for you isn't it. On the one hand you have no problem admitting that Manual hurts schools like Shawnee and atherton by cherry picking the best and the brightest but on the other hand you will question schools like St. X and Trinity because of the numbers they have and the effect it has on schools like Western and Moore.

Hold on apples and oranges here, that is academics not athletics, and we are not cherry picking the best and brightest either, they are applying from those districts to come here and if they are lucky and smart they will get in, there is a big difference, it is not like Manual is going to Middle Schools talking to students and trying to recruit them to take some entrance exam, or Manual teachers are stalking them at quick recall matches and talking them in to applying. If you are going to try to turn this around on us then you are barking up the wrong tree, we are part of the same system, we are a spoke in the wheel, the private schools are outside coming in. Basically all the School that are doing this really want is for T and X to stick to the same rules that apply to the JCPS schools. Since that is near impossible due to the very nature of single sex schools and title 9, it has led to prop 20. Which for the gazillionth time I am not supporting.

I'm sure you meant private.

 

This is probably how the thinking goes... For state titles, especially non-football sports, you're always going to be competing with privates. Also, solidarity is an issue, particularly when you know the other public school is better than yours and still has trouble making it past the private school.

 

These are not my views, just looking to explain behavior.

Thank for the explanation, but I actually had my question wrong....lol.

 

I meant the schools who sponsor it and don't really compete with the privates. Better yet, the schools that really have no significant gain from this. I would think they wouldn't want to sponsor such a proposal, because IMO, it labels them as cowards.

Hold on apples and oranges here, that is academics not athletics, and we are not cherry picking the best and brightest either, they are applying from those districts to come here and if they are lucky and smart they will get in, there is a big difference, it is not like Manual is going to Middle Schools talking to students and trying to recruit them to take some entrance exam, or Manual teachers are stalking them at quick recall matches and talking them in to applying. If you are going to try to turn this around on us then you are barking up the wrong tree, we are part of the same system, we are a spoke in the wheel, the private schools are outside coming in. Basically all the School that are doing this really want is for T and X to stick to the same rules that apply to the JCPS schools. Since that is near impossible due to the very nature of single sex schools and title 9, it has led to prop 20. Which for the gazillionth time I am not supporting.

In the name of what's best for kids it's OK for you to take the best and brightest away from schools like Iroquois and Shawnee because they and their parents chose to do so but it's something not to be allowed when it's a private school doing so. I truly believe that schools like Iroquois and Doss are barking up the wrong tree here, they have more to fear from the Males and Manuals then they do from the Trinity's and St. X's. And as to your spoke analogy, Trinity, St. X and other pirvate schools are full members of the KHSAA not outsiders and they do follow all the same rules that every other member follows. It's schools like yours who now want to change the rules because you can't consistently compete with them.

One point and one question: Boone County superintendent was quoted as being supportive of the proposal but since the vote is cast by each school, he would let each school decide whether to support or not. He has confidence that they are the experts on athletics in the district and can make the decision to support or not without him forcing his opinion on them.

 

Question: If you are surprised that some "quality" individuals are supporting and making this proposal AND the 2/3's vote which means over 200 of the 280 schools have voted for this proposal, would the opponents of this proposal admit that MAYBE, just MAYBE, they are wrong and the over 200 schools that work with the kids on a daily basis and hired to think of what is best for the kids in their school are possibly right?

One point and one question: Boone County superintendent was quoted as being supportive of the proposal but since the vote is cast by each school, he would let each school decide whether to support or not. He has confidence that they are the experts on athletics in the district and can make the decision to support or not without him forcing his opinion on them.

 

Question: If you are surprised that some "quality" individuals are supporting and making this proposal AND the 2/3's vote which means over 200 of the 280 schools have voted for this proposal, would the opponents of this proposal admit that MAYBE, just MAYBE, they are wrong and the over 200 schools that work with the kids on a daily basis and hired to think of what is best for the kids in their school are possibly right?

No I won't. I will agree that they are faced with a situation where they see the privates win a disproportionate amount and they don't know how to fix it. Their solution is to eliminate the competition. Some of the problems that affect these schools may be beyond the ability of coaches or ADs (school boards and polititians), but they aren't the private schools' problems and it is not fair or reasonable to punish private school kids.

In the name of what's best for kids it's OK for you to take the best and brightest away from schools like Iroquois and Shawnee because they and their parents chose to do so but it's something not to be allowed when it's a private school doing so. I truly believe that schools like Iroquois and Doss are barking up the wrong tree here, they have more to fear from the Males and Manuals then they do from the Trinity's and St. X's. And as to your spoke analogy, Trinity, St. X and other pirvate schools are full members of the KHSAA not outsiders and they do follow all the same rules that every other member follows. It's schools like yours who now want to change the rules because you can't consistently compete with them.

No it is what is best for those kids. It's academics not a sport. Apples and Oranges, they aren't the same thing at all. Also we don't recruit or cherry pick as you say, they apply and the way I see it when we deny entry we are forcing bright students to go back to the schools they are trying to escape and thereby helping those schools at the expense of the student, heck to be honest even the Catholic schools are full of good students that couldn't make it in to Manual. If I didn't get into Manual, St.X was my fall back plan, Eastern if I couldn't get... Financial aid.

Sorry but I don't agree with your slanted (not an insult but just a statement of your opinion being skewed by your loyality to Manual) opinion about the effect schools like Manual have on other schools in the county. Whether Manual actively attracts students or not is irrelevent, the fact remains that academically gifted students that would go to other schools if not for a school like Manual do in fact go there to the detrement of the other schools and your cast offs can not make up for that. By the same token many try to say that private schools athletic programs draw students away from public schools to the detrement of those schools and because of that we need to reing in the public schools. Going to a private school is what's best for those kids and yet people, including your principal, want to penalize those schools for doing exactly the same thing Manual does and that is taking students away from other schools. You can't have it both ways.

Your wrong, because schools are not here to produce athletes they are here to educate students. Different students need different programs and paces in which to succeed. Manual is not for everyone, some kids would get a much better education at Iroquois then Manual because they will teach them on the appropriate level. Educating students is not a competition, athletics are. And Iroquois has many students that will thrive at Iroquois and get a decent education and foundation for college or a trade, but at Manual they may not fit the mold, and would not have as much success. Your entire premise for comparision is off base. We aren't talking about who gets the most National Merit semifinalist, we are talking about finding the program that fits your learning style and interest. Manual is not for everyone, and not everyone with good grades or a high IQ in the county applies or gets in, therefore there are plenty of good student every year that leave Iroquois and go to college, serve in the Military, or go to work and are successful, and that is the end goal of the education systems and the Magnet system, place everyone into a situation where they are challenged to eachs capablity. It has nothing to do with competition. I feel that you are baised based on the situation because you are mad about a sports issue. Sorry, but you are wrong in your comparison.

Besides I am of the opinion that prop 20 is just a mechanism to encourage the passage of the other rules about the 20 mile limit, and transfers, not really a effort to get rid of the privates unless they refuse the others. We have that type of legistlation all the time in Congress. Besides, I think I made it clear I am not in support of prop 20, but things do need to change for parities sake, remember this is a sport not education, schools aren't in the business of producing athletes, they are in business to prepare students for life with an education to help them succeed.

Your wrong, because schools are not here to produce athletes they are here to educate students. Different students need different programs and paces in which to succeed. Manual is not for everyone, some kids would get a much better education at Iroquois then Manual because they will teach them on the appropriate level. Educating students is not a competition, athletics are. And Iroquois has many students that will thrive at Iroquois and get a decent education and foundation for college or a trade, but at Manual they may not fit the mold, and would not have as much success. Your entire premise for comparision is off base. We aren't talking about who gets the most National Merit semifinalist, we are talking about finding the program that fits your learning style and interest. Manual is not for everyone, and not everyone with good grades or a high IQ in the county applies or gets in, therefore there are plenty of good student every year that leave Iroquois and go to college, serve in the Military, or go to work and are successful, and that is the end goal of the education systems and the Magnet system, place everyone into a situation where they are challenged to eachs capablity. It has nothing to do with competition. I feel that you are baised based on the situation because you are mad about a sports issue. Sorry, but you are wrong in your comparison.

 

 

:thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

Your wrong, because schools are not here to produce athletes they are here to educate students. Different students need different programs and paces in which to succeed. Manual is not for everyone, some kids would get a much better education at Iroquois then Manual because they will teach them on the appropriate level. Educating students is not a competition, athletics are. And Iroquois has many students that will thrive at Iroquois and get a decent education and foundation for college or a trade, but at Manual they may not fit the mold, and would not have as much success. Your entire premise for comparision is off base. We aren't talking about who gets the most National Merit semifinalist, we are talking about finding the program that fits your learning style and interest. Manual is not for everyone, and not everyone with good grades or a high IQ in the county applies or gets in, therefore there are plenty of good student every year that leave Iroquois and go to college, serve in the Military, or go to work and are successful, and that is the end goal of the education systems and the Magnet system, place everyone into a situation where they are challenged to eachs capablity. It has nothing to do with competition. I feel that you are baised based on the situation because you are mad about a sports issue. Sorry, but you are wrong in your comparison.

 

You are missing the point. The schools exist to educate students. I have no doubt that some of the weaker academic schools and their students would benefit from the leadership that could be provided by spreading the Manual students around. That would seem to be a bigger reason to spread the academic talent around more so than the athletic talent. JCPS have made a decision to offer educational choices and individual families have decided which choice is best for their family. The private schools offer an additional choice. It is no one's business how they come to that decision. I believe that there are three factors that motivate these proposals. The first is jealousy over the success of the private schools as a whole, not just in athletics. The second is the absolute refusal of public schools to believe that they might have anything to learn from private schools, coupled with their belief that they "own" any kid that ever attended a public school. The third is the latent anti-Catholic bias that exists in this state. I grew up in a time when that bias was much more open, but it is still there. The funny thing is, the big Catholic schools will survive and thrive regardless of what is done. The athletic programs of the small Christian schools will take the biggest hit.

You are missing the point. The schools exist to educate students. I have no doubt that some of the weaker academic schools and their students would benefit from the leadership that could be provided by spreading the Manual students around. That would seem to be a bigger reason to spread the academic talent around more so than the athletic talent. JCPS have made a decision to offer educational choices and individual families have decided which choice is best for their family. The private schools offer an additional choice. It is no one's business how they come to that decision. I believe that there are three factors that motivate these proposals. The first is jealousy over the success of the private schools as a whole, not just in athletics. The second is the absolute refusal of public schools to believe that they might have anything to learn from private schools, coupled with their belief that they "own" any kid that ever attended a public school. The third is the latent anti-Catholic bias that exists in this state. I grew up in a time when that bias was much more open, but it is still there. The funny thing is, the big Catholic schools will survive and thrive regardless of what is done. The athletic programs of the small Christian schools will take the biggest hit.

First I am Catholic, is Vic Anderson, huh never mind answering that, but either way I am not an Anti-Catholic or even anti-Catholic school. I am not Jealous, nor do I think Male or Manual's administrators are either for that matter.

 

I am not missing the point, I am against prop 20. I just don't like people that are mad about it attacking my school, and Manual fans, or even those that do support prop 20, just because it is pointing out that there is a clear advantage in athletics toward the private schools side, namely title 9. There is a clear advantage and I still don't care I want the publics to play the privates and keep the two in the same playoffs. We can still play with your teams and be in the game even with the advantages anyway.

 

I don't disagree about the Catholics schools being a choice for eduation, and I agree 95% of the students and athletes at those schools are making a purely academic choice and I am not taking away from them. The issue is not that the Catholics schools are draining the students away, like the Magnets they are another option, and I don't think anyone is trying to deny that option for Jefferson County public school kids to go to those schools, the difference is the PERCEPTION is that if a kid from the urban west end or a poor rural in or around community surrounding can play ball or another sport, there are people there telling them about every financial aid possibility in the world, job offers start rolling in from local businesses for their parents from networking and the doors to certain schools are pulled wide open. But if they don't there is no one in those communities telling people about these opportunities. It may not be illegal or against the rules but it rubs people the wrong way and doesn't smell right.

 

Meanwhile Manual is an option that is listed in a high schools list passed out to every 8th grader in the county and only Jefferson county if anyone comes from out of county to come to Manual they have to pay tuition, there is no option of financial aid, and just to clear things up on that front, that is the same for every public school in the STATE ala Tony Driver at Male, not just Manual as someone stated before. So it is not the same thing as the private school sitution, when a private school offers a "Need based" financial aid package to an athlete, but doesn't go to every other student in the same neighborhood informing them of the same opportunity it seems to have the same look and feel as an athletic scholarship, it's not, but that is the perception. I mean if Vic Andersons parents really wanted him to have a catholic school education and everyone was so good about letting people know about financial aid why didn't he go to a Catholic School before he was a grade school stand out? It is not against the rules, but it smells bad. That is why so many people are backing prop 20, because they figure that they can use that as a 800 pound gorillia in the corner to really make the push for the 20 mile rule and others they think will even the playing field.

 

Again let me reitierate for the 50 gazillionth time, I am just defending my school I am not in favor of Prop 20 personally, and I think the 20 mile rule would end up benifiting the Catholic schools in the long run. I just think that the knee jerk reaction of pointing at Manual and Male and others and getting mad at posters from those schools and attacking programs people don't understand or have any experience with is silly.

I believe that there are three factors that motivate these proposals. The first is jealousy over the success of the private schools as a whole, not just in athletics. The second is the absolute refusal of public schools to believe that they might have anything to learn from private schools, coupled with their belief that they "own" any kid that ever attended a public school. The third is the latent anti-Catholic bias that exists in this state.

You're arguments might hold water when talking to other people, but not here. In this case, you're 100% wrong.

 

1) Manual has nothing to be jealous about. Anywhere. Certainly not when you take athletics out.

 

2) Again, what does Manual need to learn from the Private schools? Make kids wear a tie to school? Wouldn't work at Manual. Obviously, we're doing OK academically, and athletically we aren't too shabby either.

 

3) I have a Catholic bestfriend and a Catholic girlfriend. The Ram Bros ARE Catholic. I wouldn't be shocked if Manual had the largest percentage of Catholic students at a public school in the entire city.