I was wondering if Obama would touch upon abortion, and he did.

 

What he said was that regardless of our stance upon the abortion issue itself, "we must all agree on the heart-wrenching angst" a young woman making that decision must deal with.

 

I thought about that. It doesn't make sense to me. I kept waiting for him to discuss the substantive issue of abortion and it never came, instead he simply talked about us all having "civil debate."

 

If a fetus is not a viable life at conception, if it is merely a collection of tissue and cells, why would there ever be "heart-wrenching angst" for abortiong the fetus? Can any pro-choice supporter answer that question for me?

 

Very good point. You wouldn't have this feeling about having a tumor removed, and that is how the pro-choice side would like us to view an unborn baby.

We're off track as often happens when discussion abortion.

 

The original question dealt with the mother's angst over a decision.

 

Do you think the mother can have angst even though she doesn't consider the fetus to be a "person?"

 

I've stated that not only is it possible but its likely. I don't think that's hard to understand.

 

RM has stated that she sees it personally.

 

I'm sure she can. There is angst associated with a lot of decisions we make. Does that mean that any decision made with angst is correct? I don't think so.

 

And, just because a person is 100% Pro-Life doesn't mean they have no sympathy for a woman dealing with an unwanted pregnancy or a decision about abortion. However, in this thing called life, we don't always get mulligans on our mistakes and bad decisions. I know there's a few I'd like to get a do-over on.

I'm sure she can. There is angst associated with a lot of decisions we make. Does that mean that any decision made with angst is correct? I don't think so.

 

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You've answered the question.

 

No one is making the argument that "angst = correct decision."

If abortion is to be done away with, it will take FAR more than overturning Roe vs. Wade, and the frustrating part is that most people think making abortion illegal will mean that justice is fully served. They think their duty is to vote for the right candidates to make that happen, and that's that.

 

:thumb:I'm really on board with this line of thinking. It stems from my view of the vocal contingent of the Christian right who seem hell-bent on legislating morality and Christianity.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to shed a tear if Roe v. Wade gets overturned or gay marriage never gets passed. However, from a Christian perspective, assuring that those two things happen isn't high on my list. You can't legislate Christianity...

 

Sorry, I can't separate my faith from my views on abortion. I'm strictly pro-life, yet I get almost as frustrated with the vocal Christians who are always pushing a legislative agenda.

:thumb:I'm really on board with this line of thinking. It stems from my view of the vocal contingent of the Christian right who seem hell-bent on legislating morality and Christianity.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to shed a tear if Roe v. Wade gets overturned or gay marriage never gets passed. However, from a Christian perspective, assuring that those two things happen isn't high on my list. You can't legislate Christianity...

 

Sorry, I can't separate my faith from my views on abortion. I'm strictly pro-life, yet I get almost as frustrated with the vocal Christians who are always pushing a legislative agenda.

 

IMO they often do that because it is "easier" to mount a political campaign and harvest votes than it is to change the hearts and minds of the people they encounter. As Hearsay pointed out in his post above, people often choose the path of least resistance and I believe that is often the case here as well.

You've answered the question.

 

No one is making the argument that "angst = correct decision."

 

I think there is always angst when we want to make the wrong decision for our own convenience or desires. We know it's not right, but that's what we want. That is a real struggle.

 

I suspect the majority of people considering abortion know that it's wrong at the core. However, a young woman facing an unwanted pregnancy is in a scary situation. Depending on their situation, they may feel like they can't properly care and provide for the child and they may not have any support or anyone to turn to...so, the prospect of having a baby that you simply can't take care of would be daunting. I can't imagine being in a situation like that, nor what I would do. They need help, and I'm not sure they can always get it. In that sense, along with many others, our society has failed.

 

I'd be curious to know how much many the Christian right spends on lobbyists and political contributions to try to advance their agenda. Why? Because I'd like to know how far that money would go in providing support for women in taking care of their babies.

 

I think RM is right in that many people believe overturning Roe v. Wade will fix everything and end abortion and that's simply not the case.

 

The same Americans who complain about big government having too much control, about people being too reliant on the government to cure all that ails America, look to the government to fix the things they deem necessary. It's an interesting dichotomy (my new word for the day).

We're off track as often happens when discussion abortion.

 

The original question dealt with the mother's angst over a decision.

 

Do you think the mother can have angst even though she doesn't consider the fetus to be a "person?"

 

I've stated that not only is it possible but its likely. I don't think that's hard to understand.

 

RM has stated that she sees it personally.

 

To answer your question, yes I believe a person can have angst even though she doesn't consider a fetus to be a "person". But with apologies to Hearsay, what does that have to do with whether you believe abortion to be right or wrong? Even if a person has angst in the making of a decision, if it's a wrong decision, is the wrong decision somehow legitimized or made more acceptable because of the angst involved in making the decision? I think not and I think the whole discussion by Obama about angst is a red herring intended to divert attention from the real issue: should abortion be legal? Smart politics by him, but of no service to me on the issue.

IMO they often do that because it is "easier" to mount a political campaign and harvest votes than it is to change the hearts and minds of the people they encounter. As Hearsay pointed out in his post above, people often choose the path of least resistance and I believe that is often the case here as well.

 

:thumb:

 

Again, I agree. And, it's not right. It's sends the wrong message and sets a bad example. For better or worse, they have a lot of influence and a lot of us average citizens follow their lead.

 

It is easier to lobby for a law to be passed rather than putting your time, money and resources into helping people and changing hearts and minds, as you say. Do we really need to spend all of our money on a nicer church building? Another self-help book from a Christian author, when you have the Bible? Our priorities are skewed. Much of the Christian population that trumpets the cause of making abortion illegal has done little to truly address the problem. They're attempting to bring about external change, which in the end accomplishes little, if anything.

IMO they often do that because it is "easier" to mount a political campaign and harvest votes than it is to change the hearts and minds of the people they encounter. As Hearsay pointed out in his post above, people often choose the path of least resistance and I believe that is often the case here as well.

 

That sword cuts both ways, would you not agree? There are plenty of politicians that run on a pro choice campaign to harvest pro choice votes, are there not? Aren't those politicians equally guilty of taking the easy campaign route or are they somehow more politically pure than the conservative politicians running on anti abortion campaigns?

That sword cuts both ways, would you not agree? There are plenty of politicians that run on a pro choice campaign to harvest pro choice votes, are there not? Aren't those politicians equally guilty of taking the easy campaign route or are they somehow more politically pure than the conservative politicians running on anti abortion campaigns?

 

Hatz and I aren't talking about conservative politicians. We're talking about prominent Christian leaders who focus more on the political and legislative aspects of the abortion debate rather than going to the root of the problem and trying to change the people themselves.

 

Call your senator, or congressman, or donate money to their campaign so we can get pro-lifers in DC is the battle cry instead of putting that energy and resources into something that could help people.

 

Politicians are going to do whatever they have to do to get votes. It's not the same thing. If you want to criticize the christian masses who follow their leaders and feed the beast, fair enough. But, it's a different argument.

This is hands down the best abortion-discussion thread we have ever had. Though not an active poster in this one, I am an avid reader and at the cost of sounding patronizing, I am pleased with the discussion that both sides are providing. :thumb:

Hatz and I aren't talking about conservative politicians. We're talking about prominent Christian leaders who focus more on the political and legislative aspects of the abortion debate rather than going to the root of the problem and trying to change the people themselves.

 

Call your senator, or congressman, or donate money to their campaign so we can get pro-lifers in DC is the battle cry instead of putting that energy and resources into something that could help people.

 

Politicians are going to do whatever they have to do to get votes. It's not the same thing. If you want to criticize the christian masses who follow their leaders and feed the beast, fair enough. But, it's a different argument.

 

 

I didn't interpret the post that way since there was a discussion of harvesting votes, but be that as it may, then shouldn't the pro choice organizations spend their funds, otherwise spent on political donations to pro choice politicians or on increasing the turn out of pro choice voters, on trying to get better sex education programs put in place so as to avoid pregnancies that may result in abortions, to provide better counseling to pregnant women, to enact better laws and enforce the laws on dead beat Dads that walk away? I still say the sword cuts both sides. If you want to complain about Christian leaders that rail against abortion then you need to likewise complain about the leaders that rail in favor of abortion because a similar argument could be made that they should be using their efforts to go "to the root of the problem and trying to change the people themselves". I believe the pro choice folks raise a lot of money that is used to support pro choice politicians and to turn out pro choice voters.

I do not disagree with your post. However, I do believe that you are, whether intended or not, demonizing men and making women victims. I don't agree with the latter. Since women are, or at least should be, aware that unwanted pregnancies put an enormous burden on them, they should be more careful in their conduct. You see them as victims and I see them as participants. Maybe, in addition to assumption of the risk, we should add caveat emptor.

 

I believe the only true victim in this matter is the conceived child. It is the only one who is completely innocent party involved. I cannot condone allowing the woman to kill the innocent merely because of unwanted consequences caused by her own actions. Her later "pain" doesn't justify killing her baby.

 

Punish the fathers as harshly as possible if they do not meet their responsibility. Assist the mother in any way needed. That is fine. That is right. But don't kill the only innocent human being in the whole process. That cannot be justified. That is evil and, if I may use the term, a most serious sin.

 

As for Roe v Wade, we are probably in agreement but for different reasons. The truth is that, prior to Roe v Wade, abortion was not illegal in this country. It was a matter left to each state (Tenth Amendment). Several states (California for example) allowed for abortions. Thus, Roe merely overturned established precedent and put abortion under the ever extending umbrella of the right to privacy which was invented (my belief) in Griswold v Connecticut.

 

Therefore, overturning Roe would merely return the issue to the states. And, many of them would have legal abortions. So anyone who believes that overturning Roe will make abortions illegal in this country is uninformed.

 

By the way, I commend your passionate arguments on behalf of women. I share the same passion but first feel it toward the innocents- the babies.

 

I believe you're misconsturing the purpose for which I defend women in this position. It is, in fact, just the same as yours....to protect the innocents.

 

In my experience the majority of women DO know that abortion is evil. The reasons they are considering pregnancy include:

 

• Shame-"good" society still sees an unwed mother as a "loose" woman. They feel they have to hide their actions. Not a good reason to choose abortion, but still a factor in the decision making process. Not all women who choose abortion are unwed, but there is a significant majority which is why I use the reason as an example.
  
• Lack of support-this can be from the father, from the family, even friends. A woman who feels they're truely on their own in such a situation can panic and choose abortion rather than the tougher road of having the baby because they are afraid of how they will support themselves through the pregnancy, and/or how they will support the child afterward.
  
• Self loathing-many women are so deeply entrenched in a pathos of guilt, shame and fear that they are considering abortion becaue they feel that their lives are ruined and have no spiritual strength to draw upon that could help them see the value carrying to term their child.
  

The point I'm trying to impart (and apparently am not doing very well) is that in order to protect the innocent lives you are so passionate about (commendable, IMO) you HAVE to understand and be able to influence the factors the women are facing. You can't simply paint every woman as unfeeling and uncaring. There is no one reason, or even one set of pat reasons that women consider abortion. It's highly individual.

 

I also want to clarify that I am NOT demonizing men. However, to constantly read information and opinions that demonize the women in these situations, and never address the fact that men do figure significantly in the equation is galling to me. It angers me that a girl or woman in a crisis pregnancy situation is apparently deserving of her fate and that, in the end, the boy or man is ultimately not even considered a part of the problem, or the solution.

 

To the comment by another poster that women have all the choice:

 

Not sure, but were you aware that a great of the number of women who seek abortion BECAUSE their partner insists?

So are you saying that, if there were laws that made men more accountable and more resources were provided to educate men and women about responsible sex, you would be in favor of making abortion illegal?

 

 

I don't know why you would feel that I wouldn't want abortion to be illegal in any circumstance. My point is that regardless of legal or illegal abortion, there will be abortion, and that the solution isn't legislation, but involvement.

Hatz and I aren't talking about conservative politicians. We're talking about prominent Christian leaders who focus more on the political and legislative aspects of the abortion debate rather than going to the root of the problem and trying to change the people themselves.

 

Call your senator, or congressman, or donate money to their campaign so we can get pro-lifers in DC is the battle cry instead of putting that energy and resources into something that could help people.

 

Politicians are going to do whatever they have to do to get votes. It's not the same thing. If you want to criticize the christian masses who follow their leaders and feed the beast, fair enough. But, it's a different argument.

 

:thumb: