This is hands down the best abortion-discussion thread we have ever had. Though not an active poster in this one, I am an avid reader and at the cost of sounding patronizing, I am pleased with the discussion that both sides are providing. :thumb:

 

I agree, some very thought provoking posts from both sides.

Is the following scenerio murder?:

 

A loving wife is pregnant. At some point in the pregnency she and her family are told that if she carries to term there is a 75% of her dying and a 90% or greater chance of the unborn child dying. She wants the baby, she wants to be a mother. If she chooses to have an abortion under these conditions is it "murder"?

 

This is the scenerio that keeps this from being the simple "abortion is murder" mantra from being effective. Its the scenerio that no one discusses.

No, because, assuming that every attempt is made to save the baby, that's not an abortion. Abortion is deliberate death of the infant, via any of the methods used such as sticking a scissor in its brain, for any reason OTHER than trying to save more lives.

From my Health Care Ethics class...

 

There are two types of abortion: direct and indirect.

 

Direct abortion is the intentional killing of the fetus/baby. This is viewed as immoral.

 

Indirect abortion is when an abortion occurs as an indirect result of therapeutic care. This would be if the mother had cancer, and through kemotherapy treatments the baby was killed. This is never viewed as immoral.

I belive that I HAVE said it. I do not stop there though, as many do. I believe that beyond whether or not I feel abortion should be illegal, I KNOW that I've also stated that I believe it's a moot point in that abortion will STILL be an issue. And that the solution to the issue is NOT simply making it illegal.

 

I do want to say as well, that I do not appreciate the demanding tone in which you posed this question. This has been a very civil discussion. I also believe I've stated my position throughout this thread.

 

I know your stance on the issue of the legality of abortion. Are you in the camp that believes the only responsibility one bears is voting for the right people?

 

I'm sorry that I missed where you stated in this thread that abortion should be illegal. I saw where you stated that you did not believe in abortion, but I continue to miss the post where you state is should be illegal. But at least we have now established that you feel abortion should be illegal (and by extension of logic that Roe v Wade should be overturned).

 

Apologize if you thought it was demanding. Just sort of drives me crazy when someone is asked a simple question and they either tap dance around the answer or state they've already answered the question.

 

And to directly answer your question, no I am not in that camp.

 

Not trying to be uncivil. Just trying to understand clearly folks' positions. I now understand that you believe abortion should be illegal; so do I. You believe that simply making abortion illegal will not in and of itself solve the problem; neither do I. You believe that we need to do more to go after dead beat Dads; so do I. The truth of the matter is that you and I probably look at this issue pretty much exactly the same now that I understand you think abortion should be illegal.

 

Unfortunately, there is a chicken and the egg problem here. Some folks feel that until abortion is made illegal, one can't focus on what will need to be done to really address the problem. They believe that abortion is morally and ethically reprehensible. Some other folks feel that until you solve the underlying problems, making abortion illegal won't help much so lets solve the problems first and then make it illegal. And of course there are some other folks that don't think abortion should be illegal at all as it's totally a woman's right to decide. These folks in my opinion stop the two first to group of folks from getting their differences resolved and really coming together to address the problem.

I didn't interpret the post that way since there was a discussion of harvesting votes, but be that as it may, then shouldn't the pro choice organizations spend their funds, otherwise spent on political donations to pro choice politicians or on increasing the turn out of pro choice voters, on trying to get better sex education programs put in place so as to avoid pregnancies that may result in abortions, to provide better counseling to pregnant women, to enact better laws and enforce the laws on dead beat Dads that walk away? I still say the sword cuts both sides. If you want to complain about Christian leaders that rail against abortion then you need to likewise complain about the leaders that rail in favor of abortion because a similar argument could be made that they should be using their efforts to go "to the root of the problem and trying to change the people themselves". I believe the pro choice folks raise a lot of money that is used to support pro choice politicians and to turn out pro choice voters.

 

No I don't have to complain about non-Christian leaders in the pro-choice movement. They aren't representatives of the Christian faith. The example we, as Christians, have been given is to change hearts and minds on a personal and individual level rather than attempting to get Christian doctrine passed as the law of the land. The bulk of their time, energy and resources is being aimed in the wrong direction.

 

The non-Christian crowd isn't held to the same standard...at least by me.

No I don't have to complain about non-Christian leaders in the pro-choice movement. They aren't representatives of the Christian faith. The example we, as Christians, have been given is to change hearts and minds on a personal and individual level rather than attempting to get Christian doctrine passed as the law of the land. The bulk of their time, energy and resources is being aimed in the wrong direction.

 

The non-Christian crowd isn't held to the same standard...at least by me.

 

Okay. I'll complain about them instead.

 

Seriously, I understand the point that you want to hold Christian leaders to a different or higher standard and that's certainly your right to do so. I'm not looking at this from a religious perspective, just a consistency one.

 

Furthermore, I'm not sure that attempting to get abortion made illegal is necessarily attempting to get Christian doctrine passed as the law of the land. Maybe it is for the Christian leaders; its not for me. I believe that people were opposed to the killing of children way before God gave Moses the 10 Commandments.

I believe you're misconsturing the purpose for which I defend women in this position. It is, in fact, just the same as yours....to protect the innocents.

 

In my experience the majority of women DO know that abortion is evil. The reasons they are considering pregnancy include:

 

• Shame-"good" society still sees an unwed mother as a "loose" woman. They feel they have to hide their actions. Not a good reason to choose abortion, but still a factor in the decision making process. Not all women who choose abortion are unwed, but there is a significant majority which is why I use the reason as an example.
  
• Lack of support-this can be from the father, from the family, even friends. A woman who feels they're truely on their own in such a situation can panic and choose abortion rather than the tougher road of having the baby because they are afraid of how they will support themselves through the pregnancy, and/or how they will support the child afterward.
  
• Self loathing-many women are so deeply entrenched in a pathos of guilt, shame and fear that they are considering abortion becaue they feel that their lives are ruined and have no spiritual strength to draw upon that could help them see the value carrying to term their child.
  

The point I'm trying to impart (and apparently am not doing very well) is that in order to protect the innocent lives you are so passionate about (commendable, IMO) you HAVE to understand and be able to influence the factors the women are facing. You can't simply paint every woman as unfeeling and uncaring. There is no one reason, or even one set of pat reasons that women consider abortion. It's highly individual.

 

I also want to clarify that I am NOT demonizing men. However, to constantly read information and opinions that demonize the women in these situations, and never address the fact that men do figure significantly in the equation is galling to me. It angers me that a girl or woman in a crisis pregnancy situation is apparently deserving of her fate and that, in the end, the boy or man is ultimately not even considered a part of the problem, or the solution.

 

To the comment by another poster that women have all the choice:

 

Not sure, but were you aware that a great of the number of women who seek abortion BECAUSE their partner insists?

 

I reside on the far edge of the right wing and I must say, excellent post!:thumb:

 

We often compare abortion to murder but leave out an obvious difference, it is legal. This thread touches on my only regrets of being labeled right wing, and your post summed it up. I feel that many women make an extremely difficult decision, perhaps the biggest of their lives at that point to have an abortion. To have someone outside the clinic spitting on them and calling them a murderer in this situation is below being human.

 

It is legal and understandable to put your pet of 15 years out of it's misery. It doesnt mean you don't hurt and you definitely don't need to hear people call you a heartless killer. I'm sure that many of these women are feeling a thousand times worse than this obvious but extremely weak analogy.

 

This being said, I am anti-abortion and I hope you realize I am not putting any posters here at the level I am discussing. I find it hard to discredit any post here directly.

Edited May 21, 200917 yr by JPP
added to disclaimer

Okay. I'll complain about them instead.

 

Seriously, I understand the point that you want to hold Christian leaders to a different or higher standard and that's certainly your right to do so. I'm not looking at this from a religious perspective, just a consistency one.

 

Furthermore, I'm not sure that attempting to get abortion made illegal is necessarily attempting to get Christian doctrine passed as the law of the land. Maybe it is for the Christian leaders; its not for me. I believe that people were opposed to the killing of children way before God gave Moses the 10 Commandments.

 

Fair enough. And, I understand where you're coming from as well. This just happens to be an issue that I can't touch from anything but a religious perspective.

 

Interestingly enough, even the Hebrew nation resorted to sacrificing their children, serving idols and offering their sons and daughters as burnt offerings. (2 Kings 17:16-18...if you're interested):scared:

 

But, I digress...