So someone who doesn't think it's a difficult choice because the person chose to get pregnant in the first place is incapable of compassion? That's a new one to me...:idunno:

 

Where's the compassion for a person in a difficult situation? Where's the empathy for someone who is in a difficult decision making process?

 

It always cements my anger that men never have to face the prospect of pregnancy.

 

It takes two for a pregnancy to result. Many men run just as soon as they find out what happened, and many times even before. That leaves the woman to try and make this decision alone. Everyone wants to talk in absolutes, well lets just do that:

 

• A man does not bear the physical result of pregnancy
  
• The number of deadbeat dads is staggering. Recently, the Jefferson County Child Support division published a list of almost 700 names of individuals owing back child support. Not one name on that list owed LESS than $10K. There's an additional list available of another~2000 names that weren't published. I know a girl who has two children, and the father of those children has never paid a dime. Why? Because even though she filed, and went to court, and there is a court order, the guy has disappeared. He quit his job and left town. Where? No one knows?'
  
• These comments by Wyrostek and yourself show that you are not able to put yourself in the shoes of a woman trying to make such a decision and imagine how heart-wrenching it is.
  
• There's not one iota of compassion in stating that if she hadn't done what it took to get pregnant then she wouldn't be in that situation. I can only assume you feel the same about someone who committed a crime, serves their time and is released. Your statements lead me to one of two conclusions: Either absolutes are so important to you that there is no forgiveness, or there are one set of absolutes for men, and one for women.
  

The assumption that women do not go through an emotionally and mentally wrenching decision is flat out wrong. And you'd do well to look beyond those Planned Parenthood videos that have been posted on YouTube. You'd do yourself a huge favor if you'd volunteer at a pregnancy center that doesn't provide any services other than counseling, pregnancy tests, and referrals to outreach services.

 

Will some disappoint you? Yes. But most who come to those centers are truely searching for help, not looking for an abortion.

 

I believe in the sanctity of life. I don't believe in abortion. But I don't believe in turning an incompassionate cold shoulder toward those that may be in that situation.

 

If abortion is to be done away with, it will take FAR more than overturning Roe vs. Wade, and the frustrating part is that most people think making abortion illegal will mean that justice is fully served. They think their duty is to vote for the right candidates to make that happen, and that's that.

 

I have a deep scorn for that. If anything is to change then much work is to be done.

 

I believe that morals are paramount in this solution. Not just the morals pertaining to abortion, but the morals pertaining to sex, and the responsibility of sex.

 

I believe that holding men as accountable for a pregnancy as a woman is tantamount. More needs to be done to ensure that men can't just slip out and start a new life somewhere else. States need to have reciprocal data bases and extradition laws, as well as honor support orders from other states.

 

Those are some ideas to start. But the reality is that there will STILL be abortion, and this is an issue that will require continued effort and involvement by people who want to effect change in a real way....by touching the lives of the women making these decisions.

 

People want to vote to protect the innocent. That's chump. The only way to protect the innocent is to get involved in the life of the one making the decision.

Where's the compassion for a person in a difficult situation? Where's the empathy for someone who is in a difficult decision making process?

 

It always cements my anger that men never have to face the prospect of pregnancy.

 

It takes two for a pregnancy to result. Many men run just as soon as they find out what happened, and many times even before. That leaves the woman to try and make this decision alone. Everyone wants to talk in absolutes, well lets just do that:

 

• A man does not bear the physical result of pregnancy
  
• The number of deadbeat dads is staggering. Recently, the Jefferson County Child Support division published a list of almost 700 names of individuals owing back child support. Not one name on that list owed LESS than $10K. There's an additional list available of another~2000 names that weren't published. I know a girl who has two children, and the father of those children has never paid a dime. Why? Because even though she filed, and went to court, and there is a court order, the guy has disappeared. He quit his job and left town. Where? No one knows?'
  
• These comments by Wyrostek and yourself show that you are not able to put yourself in the shoes of a woman trying to make such a decision and imagine how heart-wrenching it is.
  
• There's not one iota of compassion in stating that if she hadn't done what it took to get pregnant then she wouldn't be in that situation. I can only assume you feel the same about someone who committed a crime, serves their time and is released. Your statements lead me to one of two conclusions: Either absolutes are so important to you that there is no forgiveness, or there are one set of absolutes for men, and one for women.
  

The assumption that women do not go through an emotionally and mentally wrenching decision is flat out wrong. And you'd do well to look beyond those Planned Parenthood videos that have been posted on YouTube. You'd do yourself a huge favor if you'd volunteer at a pregnancy center that doesn't provide any services other than counseling, pregnancy tests, and referrals to outreach services.

 

Will some disappoint you? Yes. But most who come to those centers are truely searching for help, not looking for an abortion.

 

I believe in the sanctity of life. I don't believe in abortion. But I don't believe in turning an incompassionate cold shoulder toward those that may be in that situation.

 

If abortion is to be done away with, it will take FAR more than overturning Roe vs. Wade, and the frustrating part is that most people think making abortion illegal will mean that justice is fully served. They think their duty is to vote for the right candidates to make that happen, and that's that.

 

I have a deep scorn for that. If anything is to change then much work is to be done.

 

I believe that morals are paramount in this solution. Not just the morals pertaining to abortion, but the morals pertaining to sex, and the responsibility of sex.

 

I believe that holding men as accountable for a pregnancy as a woman is tantamount. More needs to be done to ensure that men can't just slip out and start a new life somewhere else. States need to have reciprocal data bases and extradition laws, as well as honor support orders from other states.

 

Those are some ideas to start. But the reality is that there will STILL be abortion, and this is an issue that will require continued effort and involvement by people who want to effect change in a real way....by touching the lives of the women making these decisions.

 

People want to vote to protect the innocent. That's chump. The only way to protect the innocent is to get involved in the life of the one making the decision.

 

Bravo, Rockmom!

 

It's easy to look at the issue and make a judgment outside of the situation.

Where's the compassion for a person in a difficult situation? Where's the empathy for someone who is in a difficult decision making process?

 

It always cements my anger that men never have to face the prospect of pregnancy.

 

It takes two for a pregnancy to result. Many men run just as soon as they find out what happened, and many times even before. That leaves the woman to try and make this decision alone. Everyone wants to talk in absolutes, well lets just do that:

 

• A man does not bear the physical result of pregnancy
  
• The number of deadbeat dads is staggering. Recently, the Jefferson County Child Support division published a list of almost 700 names of individuals owing back child support. Not one name on that list owed LESS than $10K. There's an additional list available of another~2000 names that weren't published. I know a girl who has two children, and the father of those children has never paid a dime. Why? Because even though she filed, and went to court, and there is a court order, the guy has disappeared. He quit his job and left town. Where? No one knows?'
  
• These comments by Wyrostek and yourself show that you are not able to put yourself in the shoes of a woman trying to make such a decision and imagine how heart-wrenching it is.
  
• There's not one iota of compassion in stating that if she hadn't done what it took to get pregnant then she wouldn't be in that situation. I can only assume you feel the same about someone who committed a crime, serves their time and is released. Your statements lead me to one of two conclusions: Either absolutes are so important to you that there is no forgiveness, or there are one set of absolutes for men, and one for women.
  

The assumption that women do not go through an emotionally and mentally wrenching decision is flat out wrong. And you'd do well to look beyond those Planned Parenthood videos that have been posted on YouTube. You'd do yourself a huge favor if you'd volunteer at a pregnancy center that doesn't provide any services other than counseling, pregnancy tests, and referrals to outreach services.

 

Will some disappoint you? Yes. But most who come to those centers are truely searching for help, not looking for an abortion.

 

I believe in the sanctity of life. I don't believe in abortion. But I don't believe in turning an incompassionate cold shoulder toward those that may be in that situation.

 

If abortion is to be done away with, it will take FAR more than overturning Roe vs. Wade, and the frustrating part is that most people think making abortion illegal will mean that justice is fully served. They think their duty is to vote for the right candidates to make that happen, and that's that.

 

I have a deep scorn for that. If anything is to change then much work is to be done.

 

I believe that morals are paramount in this solution. Not just the morals pertaining to abortion, but the morals pertaining to sex, and the responsibility of sex.

 

I believe that holding men as accountable for a pregnancy as a woman is tantamount. More needs to be done to ensure that men can't just slip out and start a new life somewhere else. States need to have reciprocal data bases and extradition laws, as well as honor support orders from other states.

 

Those are some ideas to start. But the reality is that there will STILL be abortion, and this is an issue that will require continued effort and involvement by people who want to effect change in a real way....by touching the lives of the women making these decisions.

 

People want to vote to protect the innocent. That's chump. The only way to protect the innocent is to get involved in the life of the one making the decision.

 

It sounds like your argument is in regard to men vs. women. That is far different than men and/or women vs. the innocent victims of the actions of said men and women.

 

I agree with you that men should be held accountable for the children they help produce. Our laws need to be much sterner and the punishment for those who do not support their families, married or not, should be harsh.

 

Women, being fully aware of the consequences, should be more responsible. A little self control would be beneficial.

 

Regardless of the men vs. women inequity, there is no justification for the slaughter of the innocents resulting from the irresponsible behavior of others. There is something brutally wrong with our society when we kill the only innocent party in the scenerio.

 

I would also suggest that the reason many women struggle with the decision is that they, whether they admit it or not, know that abortion is an evil above most any other evil.

It sounds like your argument is in regard to men vs. women. That is far different than men and/or women vs. the innocent victims of the actions of said men and women.

 

I agree with you that men should be held accountable for the children they help produce. Our laws need to be much sterner and the punishment for those who do not support their families, married or not, should be harsh.

 

Women, being fully aware of the consequences, should be more responsible. A little self control would be beneficial.

 

Regardless of the men vs. women inequity, there is no justification for the slaughter of the innocents resulting from the irresponsible behavior of others. There is something brutally wrong with our society when we kill the only innocent party in the scenerio.

 

I would also suggest that the reason many women struggle with the decision is that they, whether they admit it or not, know that abortion is an evil above most any other evil.

 

Of course they do! That's not even the question. But there are times when a woman must be helped to understand that the evil and it's consequences are more serious than the fear she faces of the pregnancy and how she will raise her child, etc. That requires INVOLVEMENT. No amount of making it tougher to get an abortion will change that.

 

Your position is that women are the ones responsible to ensure that no pregnancy occurs?

 

I am not saying I'm against men. But I am scorneful of men who

 

1. Don't accept responsibility
   
2. Feel they can make a blanket statement as to the difficulty of the decision for women
   
3. Are unwilling to get involved to work on attacking the problem at it's roots.
   

Men should be every bit as involved as women in attacking this problem. Yet I rarely see a man at a crisis center who isn't a clergy member.

 

Men need to be a presence to help these women see that there ARE men out there who are responsible, and care about their child and them.

 

Men need to get involved and teach boys how to respect women, and themselves. They need to teach boys to value sex as more than just a self-gratification. They need to be mentors to set examples and guide boys.

 

There needs to be a high level of involvement in teaching not only that sex results in pregnancy (or disease), and teach self control.

 

As it is, the resources for women in crisis pregancy situaitons far outweighs the number of people trying to influence them.

 

This is a societal problem, and not one that will be resolved by simply overturning Roe vs. Wade.

The only problem I have with the man/women deal is that the woman can decide to murder the baby and the man has no choice even if he wants the baby...

The only problem I have with the man/women deal is that the woman can decide to murder the baby and the man has no choice even if he wants the baby...

 

That is true. There are inequities on both sides. A man can jet out of the scene, and a woman can make the decison without him.

Of course they do! That's not even the question. But there are times when a woman must be helped to understand that the evil and it's consequences are more serious than the fear she faces of the pregnancy and how she will raise her child, etc. That requires INVOLVEMENT. No amount of making it tougher to get an abortion will change that.

 

Your position is that women are the ones responsible to ensure that no pregnancy occurs?

 

I am not saying I'm against men. But I am scorneful of men who

 

1. Don't accept responsibility
   
2. Feel they can make a blanket statement as to the difficulty of the decision for women
   
3. Are unwilling to get involved to work on attacking the problem at it's roots.
   

Men should be every bit as involved as women in attacking this problem. Yet I rarely see a man at a crisis center who isn't a clergy member.

 

Men need to be a presence to help these women see that there ARE men out there who are responsible, and care about their child and them.

 

Men need to get involved and teach boys how to respect women, and themselves. They need to teach boys to value sex as more than just a self-gratification. They need to be mentors to set examples and guide boys.

 

There needs to be a high level of involvement in teaching not only that sex results in pregnancy (or disease), and teach self control.

 

As it is, the resources for women in crisis pregancy situaitons far outweighs the number of people trying to influence them.

 

This is a societal problem, and not one that will be resolved by simply overturning Roe vs. Wade.

 

 

I do not disagree with your post. However, I do believe that you are, whether intended or not, demonizing men and making women victims. I don't agree with the latter. Since women are, or at least should be, aware that unwanted pregnancies put an enormous burden on them, they should be more careful in their conduct. You see them as victims and I see them as participants. Maybe, in addition to assumption of the risk, we should add caveat emptor.

 

I believe the only true victim in this matter is the conceived child. It is the only one who is completely innocent party involved. I cannot condone allowing the woman to kill the innocent merely because of unwanted consequences caused by her own actions. Her later "pain" doesn't justify killing her baby.

 

Punish the fathers as harshly as possible if they do not meet their responsibility. Assist the mother in any way needed. That is fine. That is right. But don't kill the only innocent human being in the whole process. That cannot be justified. That is evil and, if I may use the term, a most serious sin.

 

As for Roe v Wade, we are probably in agreement but for different reasons. The truth is that, prior to Roe v Wade, abortion was not illegal in this country. It was a matter left to each state (Tenth Amendment). Several states (California for example) allowed for abortions. Thus, Roe merely overturned established precedent and put abortion under the ever extending umbrella of the right to privacy which was invented (my belief) in Griswold v Connecticut.

 

Therefore, overturning Roe would merely return the issue to the states. And, many of them would have legal abortions. So anyone who believes that overturning Roe will make abortions illegal in this country is uninformed.

 

By the way, I commend your passionate arguments on behalf of women. I share the same passion but first feel it toward the innocents- the babies.

How does the following article relate to this discussion? I think it's an interesting piece to look at ways community and government can work towards reducing abortions and making better life choices.

 

http://www.abpnews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4089&Itemid=9#jc_allComments

 

FWIW, I had Glen Stassen as an Ethics professor and he always seems to find some great ideas to promote dialogue and discussion.

I like that everyone is behaving themselves in this thread.

 

I have a much more cynical view of human behavior. I have long and painful stories of my connections with people and abortions. My opinion, based upon 12 years of experience, is that humans take the path of least resistance. Roe v. Wade created the path of least resistance. When all else appears hopeless, you can always abort the baby. Take away Roe v. Wade, and I believe the world must search for harder answers, the ones that Rockmom asks us to work toward.

 

I also agree with her on virtually every other one of her points.

 

Roe v. Wade was flawed decision-making, and also is of little evidentiary value now. That is a different, and legal, spectrum.

Of course they do! That's not even the question. But there are times when a woman must be helped to understand that the evil and it's consequences are more serious than the fear she faces of the pregnancy and how she will raise her child, etc. That requires INVOLVEMENT. No amount of making it tougher to get an abortion will change that.

 

Your position is that women are the ones responsible to ensure that no pregnancy occurs?

 

I am not saying I'm against men. But I am scorneful of men who

 

1. Don't accept responsibility
   
2. Feel they can make a blanket statement as to the difficulty of the decision for women
   
3. Are unwilling to get involved to work on attacking the problem at it's roots.
   

Men should be every bit as involved as women in attacking this problem. Yet I rarely see a man at a crisis center who isn't a clergy member.

 

Men need to be a presence to help these women see that there ARE men out there who are responsible, and care about their child and them.

 

Men need to get involved and teach boys how to respect women, and themselves. They need to teach boys to value sex as more than just a self-gratification. They need to be mentors to set examples and guide boys.

 

There needs to be a high level of involvement in teaching not only that sex results in pregnancy (or disease), and teach self control.

 

As it is, the resources for women in crisis pregancy situaitons far outweighs the number of people trying to influence them.

 

This is a societal problem, and not one that will be resolved by simply overturning Roe vs. Wade.

 

So are you saying that, if there were laws that made men more accountable and more resources were provided to educate men and women about responsible sex, you would be in favor of making abortion illegal?

As soon as men are given a say in the matter, I'll buy RM's premises, but I do agree that both men and women should be held more accountable for the actions, not just when dealing with pregnency, but with all aspects of life.

 

Both men and women know full well the consequences of their actions, and if they chose to have sex, they are taking the risk of the pregnency occurring.

 

I don't have any pity for someone who engages in an action, then doesn't take responsibility for it when the results aren't what they intended.

 

It's the same thing for people who smoke packs a day and get lung cancer because of it. Sorry, you knew the risk was there and did it anyway. No sympathy from me.

We're off track as often happens when discussion abortion.

 

The original question dealt with the mother's angst over a decision.

 

Do you think the mother can have angst even though she doesn't consider the fetus to be a "person?"

 

I've stated that not only is it possible but its likely. I don't think that's hard to understand.

 

RM has stated that she sees it personally.

We're off track as often happens when discussion abortion.

 

The original question dealt with the mother's angst over a decision.

 

Do you think the mother can have angst even though she doesn't consider the fetus to be a "person?"

 

I've stated that not only is it possible but its likely. I don't think that's hard to understand.

 

RM has stated that she sees it personally.

 

IMO, no. There is no angst involved when deciding to commit murder.

IMO, no. There is no angst involved when deciding to commit murder.

 

You arent following the question as posed.

 

The premise of the question posed is that it can't be murder in the eyes of the mother because she doesn't consider the fetus to be a human.

You arent following the question as posed.

 

The premise of the question posed is that it can't be murder in the eyes of the mother because she doesn't consider the fetus to be a human.

 

I understand how the question is posed, but I'm unable to comprehend that line of thinking, so all I can do is answer the question from my perspective.