I didn't interpret the post that way since there was a discussion of harvesting votes, but be that as it may, then shouldn't the pro choice organizations spend their funds, otherwise spent on political donations to pro choice politicians or on increasing the turn out of pro choice voters, on trying to get better sex education programs put in place so as to avoid pregnancies that may result in abortions, to provide better counseling to pregnant women, to enact better laws and enforce the laws on dead beat Dads that walk away? I still say the sword cuts both sides. If you want to complain about Christian leaders that rail against abortion then you need to likewise complain about the leaders that rail in favor of abortion because a similar argument could be made that they should be using their efforts to go "to the root of the problem and trying to change the people themselves". I believe the pro choice folks raise a lot of money that is used to support pro choice politicians and to turn out pro choice voters.

 

Which is why I posted this article in Post #23:

 

http://www.abpnews.com/index.php?opt...jc_allComments

 

 

If you look at it politically, you are right.

 

I was looking at it from a ministry versus preaching aspect.

 

I actually suggested back in the mid 90's that instead of a boycott of Disney (who was providing insurance to same-sex partners of employees) by the SBC, the SBC should make a statement taking a biblical stance against the practice of homosexuality. Then they should invest a few million of their North American Missions dollars to opening free clinics and ministries in the four areas in the country that contain the highest concentration of gays. There we would model the truth of Romans 8:31-38 and still make a statement on morals.

 

Yet it's always easier and less expensive (in time, effort and money) to win votes than practice ministry.

 

To the comment by another poster that women have all the choice:

 

Not sure, but were you aware that a great of the number of women who seek abortion BECAUSE their partner insists?

 

They can insist all they want, doesn't change the fact that they have zero say in the matter.

They can insist all they want, doesn't change the fact that they have zero say in the matter.

 

 

I assume you're discounting the emotional part of the decision and the influence of the opinion of the man?

 

Is your position that even if a man insists, and the woman does it, the woman bears the totality of the sin because she actually made the decision, even if influenced by the man?

Which is why I posted this article in Post #23:

 

http://www.abpnews.com/index.php?opt...jc_allComments

 

 

If you look at it politically, you are right.

 

I was looking at it from a ministry versus preaching aspect.

 

I actually suggested back in the mid 90's that instead of a boycott of Disney (who was providing insurance to same-sex partners of employees) by the SBC, the SBC should make a statement taking a biblical stance against the practice of homosexuality. Then they should invest a few million of their North American Missions dollars to opening free clinics and ministries in the four areas in the country that contain the highest concentration of gays. There we would model the truth of Romans 8:31-38 and still make a statement on morals.

 

Yet it's always easier and less expensive (in time, effort and money) to win votes than practice ministry.

 

 

Hatz, I must take a moment and tell you that I completely appreciate your posts on this matter. Not to discount anyone elses opinions, but of everyone who's posted, I feel you are the one person who "gets it" in the way I'm trying to convey.

This is hands down the best abortion-discussion thread we have ever had. Though not an active poster in this one, I am an avid reader and at the cost of sounding patronizing, I am pleased with the discussion that both sides are providing. :thumb:

 

Agreed 100%. Discussions like this one make me believe that all the headaches that are part and parcel of the P&R forum are worth it.

I assume you're discounting the emotional part of the decision and the influence of the opinion of the man?

 

Is your position that even if a man insists, and the woman does it, the woman bears the totality of the sin because she actually made the decision, even if influenced by the man?

 

I don't know what more you're looking for. The man has zero say in the matter. I don't know how much clearer I can say it.

 

If the man insists on having the child, and the women chooses abortion, he has no say.

 

If the man insists on having an abortion, and the women chooses to have the child, he has no say.

 

If the man insists on having the abortion, and the women chooses abortion, he still has had no say.

 

Until the man is given some decision-making authority in the process, he cannot be held responsible for an abortion. No matter what he says, it's not his choice.

 

Why do you think they always talk about the "women's choice"?

I don't know what more you're looking for. The man has zero say in the matter. I don't know how much clearer I can say it.

 

If the man insists on having the child, and the women chooses abortion, he has no say.

 

If the man insists on having an abortion, and the women chooses to have the child, he has no say.

 

If the man insists on having the abortion, and the women chooses abortion, he still has had no say.

 

Until the man is given some decision-making authority in the process, he cannot be held responsible for an abortion. No matter what he says, it's not his choice.

 

Why do you think they always talk about the "women's choice"?

 

You didn't answer my question. If a woman has an abortion because her boyfriend, whom she feels she must please, insists that she does so, does the man bear any responsibility? Is he guilty of sin?

 

You are completely ignoring the emotional part of this process. Do you feel there IS no emotional part of the process?

 

How can you say the man has no choice? This is much more than a physiological choice. How can you rationally discount the influence of a man on a woman?

 

And before someone blows this out of proportion, I am in no way, shape or form trying to say that all women are victims, or that they're weak, or that they don't in fact make the ultimate decision. But I am trying to enlighten those who believe in black and white absolutes of the MANY colors of the spectrum in between.

I think we all agree that it is an emotional decision... Still don't change the fact that it is murder....

I think we all agree that it is an emotional decision... Still don't change the fact that it is murder....

 

 

And, again, my question is:

 

Who bears the burden of the sin? The woman who had the abortion? Or do you feel that if a man is in either agreement, or is more strongly influential in that decision, does he bear any of the burden? Or are you of the camp that since physically only the woman can bear or choose not to bear the child, that she alone bears the responsibility of the decision?

If the man wants the baby and the woman chooses murder then she bears the sin.. If the man pressures her to murder then they both bear the sin.. But in the end it is totally the woman's decision... But please,,, this is just MY opinion.. No way am I or anyone else able to answer this question for God...

If the man wants the baby and the woman chooses murder then she bears the sin.. If the man pressures her to murder then they both bear the sin.. But in the end it is totally the woman's decision... But please,,, this is just MY opinion.. No way am I or anyone else able to answer this question for God...

 

I appreciate your answer to the question. :thumb:

I appreciate your answer to the question. :thumb:

Who do you think bears the burden?? You may have already included your answer,just missed it....

You didn't answer my question. If a woman has an abortion because her boyfriend, whom she feels she must please, insists that she does so, does the man bear any responsibility? Is he guilty of sin?

 

You are completely ignoring the emotional part of this process. Do you feel there IS no emotional part of the process?

 

How can you say the man has no choice? This is much more than a physiological choice. How can you rationally discount the influence of a man on a woman?

 

And before someone blows this out of proportion, I am in no way, shape or form trying to say that all women are victims, or that they're weak, or that they don't in fact make the ultimate decision. But I am trying to enlighten those who believe in black and white absolutes of the MANY colors of the spectrum in between.

 

 

I'll try to be more clear. I think anyone who trys to pressure someone into having an abortion is scum, however, the man is NOT making the decision. The blame falls on the person that ultimately makes the decision, which is the women IMO. To try to pass it off as being influenced is a cop-out IMO.

 

Maybe it is an emotional decision for the women, I don't know, but to me they made the decision to have a child as soon as they decided to engage in the action of sex. Like I've been saying all along, if you can't live with the consequences, don't engage in the action. It's just another example of people not wanting to take responsibility for their actions. (I'm referring to both men and women here.)

I'll try to be more clear. I think anyone who trys to pressure someone into having an abortion is scum, however, the man is NOT making the decision. The blame falls on the person that ultimately makes the decision, which is the women IMO. To try to pass it off as being influenced is a cop-out IMO.

 

Maybe it is an emotional decision for the women, I don't know, but to me they made the decision to have a child as soon as they decided to engage in the action of sex. Like I've been saying all along, if you can't live with the consequences, don't engage in the action. It's just another example of people not wanting to take responsibility for their actions. (I'm referring to both men and women here.)

 

Interesting. So, a woman is ulitimately the one who is solely responsible for:

 

Whether or not sex occurs

Preventing pregnancy

Deciding whether to keep the child or have an abortion or put it up for adoption.

 

I can only conclude that you also feel that a woman is ultimately solely responsible for the care, well-being and proper upbringing of her child.

Interesting. So, a woman is ulitimately the one who is solely responsible for:

 

Whether or not sex occurs

Preventing pregnancy

Deciding whether to keep the child or have an abortion or put it up for adoption.

 

I can only conclude that you also feel that a woman is ultimately solely responsible for the care, well-being and proper upbringing of her child.

 

I guess I wasn't clear....As I stated, I was talking about both men and women in the 2nd paragraph.