Who do you think bears the burden?? You may have already included your answer,just missed it....

 

I believe that all involved bear the burden.

 

I will add that rarely have I met a woman in a situation where, when trying to make the choice of keeping the baby or aborting it, was the other person involved in creating that life opposed to an abortion.

I guess I wasn't clear....As I stated, I was talking about both men and women in the 2nd paragraph.

 

But, even though both are responsible, the woman is the one to bear the burden of the sin if an abortion is chosen, even if the man influences that decision. That's what I understand from the first part of your post.

But, even though both are responsible, the woman is the one to bear the burden of the sin if an abortion is chosen, even if the man influences that decision. That's what I understand from the first part of your post.

 

 

I don't buy the influence thing. To me that's a cop-out.

I don't buy the influence thing. To me that's a cop-out.

 

 

Or in being unwilling to accept the idea that someone could actually influence someone else, who is in an extremely emotional state due to an unplanned pregnancy, you are in essence allowing your self a cop-out for being unsympathetic. It is perfectly logical for someone in a state as emotional as early in an unplanned pregnancy to be impressionable by someone whom they probably have considerable feelings for, not to mention the fact that their hormones are going to all over the place on top of their already taxed emotional state.

 

 

For what it's worth, I am indifferent to the issue at hand, just being advocatus diabolis.

I don't know why you would feel that I wouldn't want abortion to be illegal in any circumstance. My point is that regardless of legal or illegal abortion, there will be abortion, and that the solution isn't legislation, but involvement.

 

I don't believe I've stated what I think your opinion on abortion is, have I? I asked you the question which you still haven't answered. If you do feel that abortion should be illegal in any circumstance, then say it.

I don't believe I've stated what I think your opinion on abortion is, have I? I asked you the question which you still haven't answered. If you do feel that abortion should be illegal in any circumstance, then say it.

 

 

I belive that I HAVE said it. I do not stop there though, as many do. I believe that beyond whether or not I feel abortion should be illegal, I KNOW that I've also stated that I believe it's a moot point in that abortion will STILL be an issue. And that the solution to the issue is NOT simply making it illegal.

 

I do want to say as well, that I do not appreciate the demanding tone in which you posed this question. This has been a very civil discussion. I also believe I've stated my position throughout this thread.

 

I know your stance on the issue of the legality of abortion. Are you in the camp that believes the only responsibility one bears is voting for the right people?

I think we all agree that it is an emotional decision... Still don't change the fact that it is murder....

 

Is the following scenerio murder?:

 

A loving wife is pregnant. At some point in the pregnency she and her family are told that if she carries to term there is a 75% of her dying and a 90% or greater chance of the unborn child dying. She wants the baby, she wants to be a mother. If she chooses to have an abortion under these conditions is it "murder"?

 

This is the scenerio that keeps this from being the simple "abortion is murder" mantra from being effective. Its the scenerio that no one discusses.

Is the following scenerio murder?:

 

A loving wife is pregnant. At some point in the pregnency she and her family are told that if she carries to term there is a 75% of her dying and a 90% or greater chance of the unborn child dying. She wants the baby, she wants to be a mother. If she chooses to have an abortion under these conditions is it "murder"?

 

This is the scenerio that keeps this from being the simple "abortion is murder" mantra from being effective. Its the scenerio that no one discusses.

 

I've avoided that scenario (or similar) because it's always pointed out that those situations are rare. But, they are real. I get so frustrated because so many people seem to think that every decision to abort is as simple as choosing to make a doctor's appointment for a routine procedure.

And, again, my question is:

 

Who bears the burden of the sin? The woman who had the abortion? Or do you feel that if a man is in either agreement, or is more strongly influential in that decision, does he bear any of the burden? Or are you of the camp that since physically only the woman can bear or choose not to bear the child, that she alone bears the responsibility of the decision?

 

Let me take a stab at this one.

 

If the man insists and the abortion happens then I think they both bear the responsibility. They both made the baby and they both played a role in terminating the pregnancy

 

But if the man takes the path that I believe I would take in that situation(begging, pleading doing whatever it takes to convince the woman to have the child, paying for 100% of her medical expenses and agreeing to take full custody of the child if the woman doesn't want the responsibility and if she does keep the baby, stepping up and paying support for the child) and the woman terminates the pregnancy despite his wishes then the sin falls 100% on the shoulders of the woman.

Let me take a stab at this one.

 

If the man insists and the abortion happens then I think they both bear the responsibility. They both made the baby and they both played a role in terminating the pregnancy

 

But if the man takes the path that I believe I would take in that situation(begging, pleading doing whatever it takes to convince the woman to have the child, paying for 100% of her medical expenses and agreeing to take full custody of the child if the woman doesn't want the responsibility and if she does keep the baby, stepping up and paying support for the child) and the woman terminates the pregnancy despite his wishes then the sin falls 100% on the shoulders of the woman.

 

I agree with both of your statements.

I've avoided that scenario (or similar) because it's always pointed out that those situations are rare. But, they are real. I get so frustrated because so many people seem to think that every decision to abort is as simple as choosing to make a doctor's appointment for a routine procedure.

 

The sad truth is that I have seen multiple examples where abortion was just a simple decision based 100% on the convenience of the parties involved. RM only, PM me if you wish and I will describe it to you and you will hopefully understand why I have a somewhat jaded view of the "struggle all women face" when making this decision.

I've avoided that scenario (or similar) because it's always pointed out that those situations are rare. But, they are real. I get so frustrated because so many people seem to think that every decision to abort is as simple as choosing to make a doctor's appointment for a routine procedure.

 

 

Its not as simple as either "side" of the argument makes it out to be. This is why a solid majority (about 2/3rds) of Americans do NOT want to overturn Roe V. Wade. But as now a majority of Americans also consider themselves "pro-life". How do you reconcile this apparent contradiction? Maybe Mr. Clinton put the sentiment of this contradiction into a memorable phrase - "Abortions should be safe, legal...and rare."

The sad truth is that I have seen multiple examples where abortion was just a simple decision based 100% on the convenience of the parties involved. RM only, PM me if you wish and I will describe it to you and you will hopefully understand why I have a somewhat jaded view of the "struggle all women face" when making this decision.

 

I'm not saying that there aren't those who do find it a simple decision. As I mentioned in an earlier post, there are those who disappoint, depsite one's best efforts to persuade them otherwise. The point, though, is that a blanket statement CANNOT be made that NO woman struggles with the decision. I do believe, based on my experience, that MOST women do struggle with the decision. And that the factors are far more complex than mere convenience.

Its not as simple as either "side" of the argument makes it out to be. This is why a solid majority (about 2/3rds) of Americans do NOT want to overturn Roe V. Wade. But as now a majority of Americans also consider themselves "pro-life". How do you reconcile this apparent contradiction? Maybe Mr. Clinton put the sentiment of this contradiction into a memorable phrase - "Abortions should be safe, legal...and rare."

 

 

Agree on all of your comments. And that's the point I'm trying to make in this thread, in response to some very succint, absolute statements about whether women who choose abortion suffer in their decision.

I'm not saying that there aren't those who do find it a simple decision. As I mentioned in an earlier post, there are those who disappoint, depsite one's best efforts to persuade them otherwise. The point, though, is that a blanket statement CANNOT be made that NO woman struggles with the decision. I do believe, based on my experience, that MOST women do struggle with the decision. And that the factors are far more complex than mere convenience.

 

Unfortunately my experience is the opposite and those people I find absolutely repugnant. I don't want all abortions made illegal but I do want the scope in which they can be legally performed to be very, very narrow. An abortion should never be performed simply as a means of birth control.