Of course Pitino would have had down years. But you think that if he was still coaching here that we wouldn't have hung atleast 1 more title here during the last 12 years? C'mon. UK wouldn't be in the postion they are in today. No team wins a title every year, makes the final four every year, or even the Elite 8. It's really how UK was left that bothers me. Tubby wasn't able to sustain a level of bringing players in that is needed to remain near the top. C'mon we are debating how good Saul Smith was. That should tell you everything you need to know.

 

There is no way to know for sure. He would have put some good teams together, but no where near as great as his 96 team. I mean he has had plenty of time at UL to win a title by now, but has not. We will see how this year plays out. Roy Williams at UNC, a program you keep bringing up has one one title. Since you seem to think that Tubby's dont count, then I guess Roy Williams one title don't count as well. Duke has had great teams since are run, and has only won one title. So yeah there is no reason to believe that we definitely would have won another title with him, the tournament is just so hard to win.

 

Honestly we might have one less title if he was still here, or if anything the exact amount. I really don't think he wins it with the 98 team, yeah it was his players. But that team was not the most talented team in the country that year like in 96 and 97. Tubby's system has fit perfect for the type of players on that team. So if Pitino had stayed I think we either have one less title, or maybe he would have eventually got us another one which would still put us at the same amount today...

Scribe it's not the Championship. You can't win one every year. It's just doesn't happen. But, UK is no where near as strong a program today as it was during the 90's. UK used to mean something. People were afraid to play at Rupp. Kids outside of Kentucky had UK shirts, jerseys and wall paper, etc. We aren't a brand name any more for people outside of the Bluegrass. I don't really think anyone could disagree with that. Even when Carolina was struggling they were still the Tar Heels, you knew they would be back. I think we've fallen off the way UCLA did in the late 90's early 2000's. We are still a prestigious school, but UK doesn't hold the same swagger it used to.

 

UK had that same swagger it use to, especially during the 03-05 run. As I have said before the last two years under Tubby it started going downhill. However last year was not on him, and I wont put it on Billy G either because of injuries. This year has nothing to do with Tubby, it is on Billy G. This team was talented enough to be in the big dance. The state of the program now falls on Billy G, and not Tubby, even though you won't want to admit that. We dont know what team Tubby would have put together for this year, so can't say we would be in this same position.

There is no way to know for sure. He would have put some good teams together, but no where near as great as his 96 team. I mean he has had plenty of time at UL to win a title by now, but has not. We will see how this year plays out. Roy Williams at UNC, a program you keep bringing up has one one title. Since you seem to think that Tubby's dont count, then I guess Roy Williams one title don't count as well. Duke has had great teams since are run, and has only won one title. So yeah there is no reason to believe that we definitely would have won another title with him, the tournament is just so hard to win.

 

Honestly we might have one less title if he was still here, or if anything the exact amount. I really don't think he wins it with the 98 team, yeah it was his players. But that team was not the most talented team in the country that year like in 96 and 97. Tubby's system has fit perfect for the type of players on that team. So if Pitino had stayed I think we either have one less title, or maybe he would have eventually got us another one which would still put us at the same amount today...

 

UNC goes to the final four. UNC stays in the top 5 in the country. UNC brings in McDonald's All-Americans and top rated classes. UNC has been a contender for the title the last few years. Roy took a team that was not that good before he got there to the title. Remember they won like 13 games the season before he got there. Yes, they had talent with 3 first rounders coming back then be brought in Marvin Williams as well. It wasn't like he inherited a squad that was used to winning. You have to take that into consideration.

UNC loses to George Mason. They have two second round losses under Roy Williams and have made the final four twice in five years. And Roy won a national title with Matt Doherty's players.

UNC loses to George Mason. They have two second round losses under Roy Williams and have made the final four twice in five years. And Roy won a national title with Matt Doherty's players.

 

But they were players Matt Doherty couldn't win with.

And weren't healthy

The man had two "turmoil" seasons in 4 years. I'm sorry, but something doesn't add up there.

 

Sheray Thomas actually was pretty highly touted although a tumor behind his knee hindered his whole UK career. I dont know what having a tumor behind your knee is like but that sounds awfully painful.

 

Jason Parker was going to be an absolute monster for UK except for the injuries and boneheaded things he did. The talent was there though. The class of Morris, Rondo, Crawford, and Bradley was a great class. Tubby couldn't forsee 2 of the 4 leaving before their junior year.

 

What really got Tubby was when he had his 2 amazing years (I think 03-04,and 04-05. During these years it seemed like he had forgotten to recruit. And if you look ahead to now, this is why the senior class 2 years ago was awful as well as this years. Being why his last two years at the helm werent up to UK standards.

 

Look we see Tubby can coach, just look at what he's done at Minnesota. (For Minnesota's standards) He's a guy who at Minnesota, will have them in the tourney every year and will range from a 7-11 seed each year imo. Which is great for a school at Minnesota. Translating this to Kentucky, made him a sweet sixteen coach for the most part. These are great standards for most schools. Just not here at Kentucky. So imo it was a great move for him. As well as UK.

 

Now to the topic of UK's head coach, you have to give Billy one more year. He hasnt even gotten his players in yet. We have to be patient as UK because believe me the grass in greener on the other side and next year is the year we get there. Now if your going to get rid of him, I mean if he does get fired, the only two guys for the job are Pitino and Calipari. If Calipari came then Wall would follow and I think Cousins would as well. Which would mean instant success for UK next year. Well only time will tell. GO CATS!:thumb:

Sheray Thomas actually was pretty highly touted although a tumor behind his knee hindered his whole UK career. I dont know what having a tumor behind your knee is like but that sounds awfully painful.

 

Jason Parker was going to be an absolute monster for UK except for the injuries and boneheaded things he did. The talent was there though. The class of Morris, Rondo, Crawford, and Bradley was a great class. Tubby couldn't forsee 2 of the 4 leaving before their junior year.

 

What really got Tubby was when he had his 2 amazing years (I think 03-04,and 04-05. During these years it seemed like he had forgotten to recruit. And if you look ahead to now, this is why the senior class 2 years ago was awful as well as this years. Being why his last two years at the helm werent up to UK standards.

 

Look we see Tubby can coach, just look at what he's done at Minnesota. (For Minnesota's standards) He's a guy who at Minnesota, will have them in the tourney every year and will range from a 7-11 seed each year imo. Which is great for a school at Minnesota. Translating this to Kentucky, made him a sweet sixteen coach for the most part. These are great standards for most schools. Just not here at Kentucky. So imo it was a great move for him. As well as UK.

 

Now to the topic of UK's head coach, you have to give Billy one more year. He hasnt even gotten his players in yet. We have to be patient as UK because believe me the grass in greener on the other side and next year is the year we get there. Now if your going to get rid of him, I mean if he does get fired, the only two guys for the job are Pitino and Calipari. If Calipari came then Wall would follow and I think Cousins would as well. Which would mean instant success for UK next year. Well only time will tell. GO CATS!:thumb:

 

Ah Sherray Thomas wasn't very good. I don't care where he was rated.

 

Jason Parker was my favorite player when he played. He was a beast.

 

How could you recruit 3 McDonalds All-Americans and think it was possible that they wouldn't stay 4 years? You're lucky to get two seasons out of them now.

 

I agree with the point about forgetting to recruit. You can tell those were the worst classes he had. We're reaping the benefits right now.

 

I completely agree in the fact that Tubby is an excellent coach FOR A SMALLER SCHOOL basketball wise. He isn't cut out for the top jobs, but Minnesota is the type of job where he will be very embraced for years to come.

 

As for getting Calipari: Cousins, Wall, Orton, Patterson, Meeks, Hood, Miller, Stevenson, and Galloway would be a pretty sick 1-9. If Liggins stayed and got his head on straight add him in there too. Plus Pilgrim.

And weren't healthy

 

Very true

Ah Sherray Thomas wasn't very good. I don't care where he was rated.

 

Jason Parker was my favorite player when he played. He was a beast.

 

How could you recruit 3 McDonalds All-Americans and think it was possible that they wouldn't stay 4 years? You're lucky to get two seasons out of them now.

 

I agree with the point about forgetting to recruit. You can tell those were the worst classes he had. We're reaping the benefits right now.

 

I completely agree in the fact that Tubby is an excellent coach FOR A SMALLER SCHOOL basketball wise. He isn't cut out for the top jobs, but Minnesota is the type of job where he will be very embraced for years to come.

 

As for getting Calipari: Cousins, Wall, Orton, Patterson, Meeks, Hood, Miller, Stevenson, and Galloway would be a pretty sick 1-9. If Liggins stayed and got his head on straight add him in there too. Plus Pilgrim.

 

 

Sheray Thomas was actually very solid his freshman year. He looked like he was going to be a solid contributor, but then the tumor happened.

 

I don't agree about the All-American part at all. Crawford and Morris were both 4 year players, it's not Tubby's fault that Morris didn't have a brain, and tried to leave after his 1st year. If Morris would have stayed 4 years like he should have, we wouldn't be having this conversation. It's not the coaches fault that many players are too dumb to understand what's in their best interest.

I don't agree about the All-American part at all. Crawford and Morris were both 4 year players, it's not Tubby's fault that Morris didn't have a brain, and tried to leave after his 1st year. If Morris would have stayed 4 years like he should have, we wouldn't be having this conversation. It's not the coaches fault that many players are too dumb to understand what's in their best interest.

 

You expect to keep 3 of the top 25 players in a class for 4 years? No way.

 

What they do after they enroll is totally unrelated. When you sign that type of talent, you need to be planning for 2-3 years out of them.

You expect to keep 3 of the top 25 players in a class for 4 years? No way.

 

What they do after they enroll is totally unrelated. When you sign that type of talent, you need to be planning for 2-3 years out of them.

 

Exactly,

Scout had Rondo as the #11 prospect overall and #3 PG. Crawford was #12 and the 3rd SG over all with Morris at 15 overall and the #3 Center. You don't expect that kind of talent to stick around for 4 years when you are recruiting it. Those types of recruits typically aren't 4 year players.

Vince Carter, Stackhouse, Rasheed Wallace and Michael Jordan were better in the NBA....I guess Dean Smith was good at player development either.

 

I'm not trying to argue that Dean Smith wasn't a great coach. He obviously was. But, nobody will ever convince me that he shouldn't have more than two titles with all the talent he coached at UNC during his career.

 

I think there were times when he and his teams may have been better if he'd turned his studs loose a little more. On the flipside, I wonder if his coaching style of making those guys stay disciplined and team oriented isn't part of the reason some of those guys were better NBA players.

 

They had the raw talent to be great and Dean Smith taught them more about the overall picture on the court rather than their one-on-one battle by making them stay within the team and play disciplined. When they got the NBA, they got cut loose so to speak, but they had that background of playing within the team concept.

 

So, something that may have hurt some of his teams, IMO, may be the same thing that made some of his players even better in the NBA. Just a thought...

 

Also, I disagree about Stackhouse. I think he was better at UNC. But, Smith has many more guys who ended up better in the league...MJ, Worthy, Rasheed, Vince, etc.

You expect to keep 3 of the top 25 players in a class for 4 years? No way.

 

What they do after they enroll is totally unrelated. When you sign that type of talent, you need to be planning for 2-3 years out of them.

 

You expect them when you sign them to be there 2 years at least, unless they are top 5 players, and none of them were.

 

After watching them play their freshman years it was pretty obvious that Crawford and Morris were going to be there for the long haul unless something drastic happened.

I'm not trying to argue that Dean Smith wasn't a great coach. He obviously was. But, nobody will ever convince me that he shouldn't have more than two titles with all the talent he coached at UNC during his career.

 

I think there were times when he and his teams may have been better if he'd turned his studs loose a little more. On the flipside, I wonder if his coaching style of making those guys stay disciplined and team oriented isn't part of the reason some of those guys were better NBA players.

 

They had the raw talent to be great and Dean Smith taught them more about the overall picture on the court rather than their one-on-one battle by making them stay within the team and play disciplined. When they got the NBA, they got cut loose so to speak, but they had that background of playing within the team concept.

 

So, something that may have hurt some of his teams, IMO, may be the same thing that made some of his players even better in the NBA. Just a thought...

 

Also, I disagree about Stackhouse. I think he was better at UNC. But, Smith has many more guys who ended up better in the league...MJ, Worthy, Rasheed, Vince, etc.

 

The Dean Smtih system. Remember when they used to say that the only person who could have kept Jordan under 20 points was Dean Smith? Stackhouse was better at UNC. Jordan and Worthy were better in the NBA but they were slouches in college either. Vince was overshadowed in college by Antawn Jamison. They seemed to switch roles once they got to the NBA. Jamison was definitely a better college basketball player, though he is an pretty good NBA player.

 

But to Mustangs comment I would say no. The just as 5wide said the UNC players were better in the NBA because of how Dean Smith made them play in college. Tubby's players like Rondo and Auzibuike just wanted to get away from being bogged down in Smith's style of coaching.