Being uncertain of what the answer is does nothing to negate the existence of the answer. The answer is there. It's up to us to find it.

 

Orville and Wilbur Wright had faith they could figure out how to fly. People told them they were crazy for believing in something that everyone regarded as impossible the entire history of mankind.

 

Galileo's had faith that his discoveries in astronomy proved that the earth and planets revolved around the sun, even though the Roman Catholic Church and virtually all scientists of his day believed that the earth was the center of the universe. The Church forced Galileo to recant and placed him under house arrest the final eight years of his life. It wasn't until 360 years later (1992) that the Church formally acknowledged its error.

 

The laws of thermodynamics dictate that the total amount of disorder is always increasing and yet, evolutionists insist that we share their faith that highly organized complex life forms arose out of total chaos.

 

Faith is not the absence of the answer, it is merely the lack of understanding of the answer.

 

I agree with most of your post. Having faith does not mean that your answer is wrong, agreed. It also doesnt mean your answer is right.

 

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

 

The word's "sure" and "certain" here in Hebrews 11:1 seem to suggest that the Bible looks at things a bit differently however.

I agree with most of your post. Having faith does not mean that your answer is wrong, agreed. It also doesnt mean your answer is right.

 

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

 

The word's "sure" and "certain" here in Hebrews 11:1 seem to suggest that the Bible looks at things a bit differently however.

I posted prematurely, and address this statement with the following:

 

I don't have to know how to engineer a bridge to entrust it to support my weight from one side to the other. Have bridges been known to collapse and fail? Absolutely... but the fact that a certain bridge has supported me hundreds of previous trips allows my "faith" in that bridge to let me test it one more time in full confidence that it will support me one more time. The fact that I'm here posting vindicates the faith I've placed in that bridge for over 40 years.

 

God is at this point in my life more certain to me than some old bridge. He has never let me down, and I have faith that He never will.

Being uncertain of what the answer is does nothing to negate the existence of the answer. The answer is there. It's up to us to find it.

 

Orville and Wilbur Wright had faith they could figure out how to fly. People told them they were crazy for believing in something that everyone regarded as impossible the entire history of mankind.

 

Galileo had faith that his discoveries in astronomy proved that the earth and planets revolved around the sun, even though the Roman Catholic Church and virtually all scientists of his day believed that the earth was the center of the universe. The Church forced Galileo to recant and placed him under house arrest the final eight years of his life. It wasn't until 360 years later (1992) that the Church formally acknowledged its error.

 

The laws of thermodynamics dictate that the total amount of disorder is always increasing and yet, evolutionists insist that we share their faith that highly organized complex life forms arose out of total chaos. I prefer to place my faith in, "And God said..."

 

I don't have to know how to engineer a bridge to entrust it to support my weight from one side to the other. Do bridges collapse and fail? Absolutely... but the fact that a certain bridge has supported me hundreds of previous trips allows my "faith" in that bridge to let me test it one more time. The fact that I'm here posting vindicates the faith I've placed in that bridge for over 40 years.

 

That might be a good one to add to the discussion on "the seperation of the church and state."

... JMO, I'm not a religious scholar like LBBC, FB, or HHS, just the perspective of a young Christian.

This is a good time to point out that I have much more knowledge than either wisdom or faith. I do too much talking and not enough walking.

There is no way to know. That's the thing.

 

I choose not to believe that a God could be as vengeful and neglectful as the one in the Christian Bible...and as I have stated repeatedly...if God is as described - I want no part in worshiping him.

Wow, what do you say to that? I don't find Him vengeful at all. And nowhere do I find Him neglectful. I assume your needs are met. All I can say is this....and I don't mean this personally....some think so highly of themselves that they can't fathom that they are virtually insignificant in the grand scheme of things by having to submit to a Creator, and even moreso to His Son who was sent for each and every individual. However, we are more than insignificant in Christ. I choose to pray for you FRF.

Any and all religions are based on faith, regardless if they're Protestant, Catholic, Islamic, Hindu, Bhuddist, tribal, etc.

 

There's no proof. Eye witness writings from 2000 years ago, or many more thousands of years, according to the religion, must still rely on the individual(s)... the reader... the believer... believing that what they have read is absolutely the truth.

 

What is the truth?

 

It's faith.

 

One can debate forever on these religion issues. The answer is simply having faith in what you have been taught and believe.

 

Now, I'll not get into the "cultural" reasons I have posted before. Someone in New Guinea may be surfing the internet, read what I posted, and agree.

First off, I respect you to be wise enough to state your opinions at a young age. We need more young thinkers.

 

To address your post -

 

As for the "deny the existence of Australia" comment - I do not remember that. I think you may have me confused with someone else or maybe one of us is misunderstanding. If you are trying to say that denying God and denying the existence of Australia are comparable - I am sorry to say that the argument is ludicrous. I can go to Australia - therefore I can know rather or not it is there. I can not go to God. In fact, if I attempt to talk to him he simply says nothing back. He makes no effort to contact us at all in anyway. I cant believe an all loving God would expect us to believe in him and then leave us in the cold. You or whoever else can say that he communicates through people and through scenery or whatever else - but that argument is simply moot. That is really grasping straws.

 

Oh, and I am fairly sure there are no biblical scholars on BGP.:thumb:

 

I was doing the opposite of saying the two were comparable... Believing in God takes faith in Christ and the Lord, one must look for answers and find those answers in Christ, while there is nothing holding us back from believing in Australia... If God WAS comparable in Australia in this situation, everyone would be forced to follow, and once again free will would be removed..

Wow, what do you say to that? I don't find Him vengeful at all. And nowhere do I find Him neglectful. I assume your needs are met. All I can say is this....and I don't mean this personally....some think so highly of themselves that they can't fathom that they are virtually insignificant in the grand scheme of things by having to submit to a Creator, and even moreso to His Son who was sent for each and every individual. However, we are more than insignificant in Christ. I choose to pray for you FRF.

 

You dont find him vengeful? Let me find it for you:

 

Psalm 93:1 The Lord is the God to whom revenge belongeth: the God of revenge hath acted freely.

 

Job 9:22 He destroyeth the perfect and the wicked.

 

Ezekiel 21:3 Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I am againsth thee, and will draw forth my sword out of his sheath, and will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked.

 

1 Corinthians 3:17 If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple.

 

2 Chronicles 29:10 Now it is in my heart to make a covenant with the LORD God of Israel, that His fierce wrath may turn away from us.

 

Nehemiah 13:18 Did not your fathers do thus, and did not our God bring all this disaster on us and on this city? Yet you bring added wrath on Israel by profaning the Sabbath.”

I was doing the opposite of saying the two were comparable... Believing in God takes faith in Christ and the Lord, one must look for answers and find those answers in Christ, while there is nothing holding us back from believing in Australia... If God WAS comparable in Australia in this situation, everyone would be forced to follow, and once again free will would be removed..

 

Everyone would not be "forced" to follow...we would just have to pay the consequences for choosing to not follow such a God. Thus, if we would still have the conscience choice rather or not to follow God - then free will would still be intact. Faith would just be obsolete and we would have to argue a bit more about BCG and I would devote my days trying to convince LBBC that the Outsiders aren't that great of a tag team.

You dont find him vengeful? Let me find it for you:

 

Psalm 93:1 The Lord is the God to whom revenge belongeth: the God of revenge hath acted freely.

 

Job 9:22 He destroyeth the perfect and the wicked.

 

Ezekiel 21:3 Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I am againsth thee, and will draw forth my sword out of his sheath, and will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked.

 

1 Corinthians 3:17 If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple.

 

2 Chronicles 29:10 Now it is in my heart to make a covenant with the LORD God of Israel, that His fierce wrath may turn away from us.

 

Nehemiah 13:18 Did not your fathers do thus, and did not our God bring all this disaster on us and on this city? Yet you bring added wrath on Israel by profaning the Sabbath.”

You fail to highlight it all, why did he bring wrath on the city? I suppose you'd prefer a God who has no judgement. Not surprising considering the generation currently who thinks that any form of punishment is harsh. Again, thinking more highly of ourselves than we ought. Really, what are we worth apart from God? We are nothing but dead man's bones.

 

I won't spend the time quoting the hundreds of verses where God is patiently trying to bring man into a right relationship with Him. What you're doing is no differing than the snake handling religions taking "power over the serpent" passages out of context and basing their religion.

You fail to highlight it all, why did he bring wrath on the city? I suppose you'd prefer a God who has no judgement. Not surprising considering the generation currently who thinks that any form of punishment is harsh. Again, thinking more highly of ourselves than we ought. Really, what are we worth apart from God? We are nothing but dead man's bones.

 

I won't spend the time quoting the hundreds of verses where God is patiently trying to bring man into a right relationship with Him. What you're doing is no differing than the snake handling religions taking "power over the serpent" passages out of context and basing their religion.

 

Please do not try to act like that everyday, typical Christians are innocent of taking passages "out of context and basing their religion" on it. The myriad of denominations within the branch of Christianity is a testament to the ability to take the bible and make of it what you will. It's a testament to the completely fallibility of the bible that its not even necessary to "take it out of context"...if you disagree with one bible verse chances are you can find another that refutes it and backs your side of things up.

 

But that's not what's important. Let me address your statement that "why did he bring wrath on the city? I suppose you'd prefer a God who has no judgement. Not surprising considering the generation currently who thinks that any form of punishment is harsh. Again, thinking more highly of ourselves than we ought. Really, what are we worth apart from God? We are nothing but dead man's bones." I don't necessarily prefer a God "that has no judgement." - but what I am sure of is I perfer a God that would not "bring wrath upon a city." Why does God give us free-will if he is willing to destroy a city for exercising it? Why has he not destroyed Las Vegas, by the way? Or has God worked out his anger problems sense the days of Sodam and Gomorrah? The ultimate "harsh" punishment is one that lasts forever, though. An eternal torment filled with fire, darkness, and the ever annoying gnashing of teeth. How could a "loving" God, far less an "all-loving" God find it within himself to allow the creations that he, perhaps foolishly, gave free will to burn and to suffer endlessly.

 

A lot of people like to use the comparison that "a parent punishes a kid for not obeying them" but if a parent truly loves their child do you think they could allow that child to be tormented and punished for eternity? Think about those that you love. I don't know if you have children or not - and I don't think its really any of my business - but just imagine someone you love (truly love.) If they rejected you - if they did not agree with you on such a fundamental level that they did not want to follow you; did not want to do things as you wish they would for them to do....but you still loved them unconditionally.......could you ever find it in yourself to allow them to burn for an eternity?

Please do not try to act like that everyday, typical Christians are innocent of taking passages "out of context and basing their religion" on it. The myriad of denominations within the branch of Christianity is a testament to the ability to take the bible and make of it what you will. It's a testament to the completely fallibility of the bible that its not even necessary to "take it out of context"...if you disagree with one bible verse chances are you can find another that refutes it and backs your side of things up.

 

But that's not what's important. Let me address your statement that "why did he bring wrath on the city? I suppose you'd prefer a God who has no judgement. Not surprising considering the generation currently who thinks that any form of punishment is harsh. Again, thinking more highly of ourselves than we ought. Really, what are we worth apart from God? We are nothing but dead man's bones." I don't necessarily prefer a God "that has no judgement." - but what I am sure of is I perfer a God that would not "bring wrath upon a city." Why does God give us free-will if he is willing to destroy a city for exercising it? Why has he not destroyed Las Vegas, by the way? Or has God worked out his anger problems sense the days of Sodam and Gomorrah? The ultimate "harsh" punishment is one that lasts forever, though. An eternal torment filled with fire, darkness, and the ever annoying gnashing of teeth. How could a "loving" God, far less an "all-loving" God find it within himself to allow the creations that he, perhaps foolishly, gave free will to burn and to suffer endlessly.

 

A lot of people like to use the comparison that "a parent punishes a kid for not obeying them" but if a parent truly loves their child do you think they could allow that child to be tormented and punished for eternity? Think about those that you love. I don't know if you have children or not - and I don't think its really any of my business - but just imagine someone you love (truly love.) If they rejected you - if they did not agree with you on such a fundamental level that they did not want to follow you; did not want to do things as you wish they would for them to do....but you still loved them unconditionally.......could you ever find it in yourself to allow them to burn for an eternity?

A. You must believe the entire bible from cover to cover as truth for us to have the same basis for argument. From your posts, I don't suppose you do. So arguing scripture is silly if we don't come from the same point of view on the truth of God's word.

B. With regards to destroying Las Vegas for instance, who's to say he won't?

C. As for free-will, I believe that the free will he gives us is a will to either choose to follow him or not. Again, when we think of ourselves as greater than we are, especially in Heavenly realms, then I suppose I see your point of view. Again, I argue that apart from Christ, we are but a speck of dust in the grand scheme of things and headed for Hell. As cruel as it may be. It's simple really, I liken it to this,,,if you were on the 4th story of a 4story building that was on fire and the ladder of the fire truck was at your window, it would still be your choice to step out on that ladder or to stay and suffer the inevitable consequences.

A. You must believe the entire bible from cover to cover as truth for us to have the same basis for argument. From your posts, I don't suppose you do. So arguing scripture is silly if we don't come from the same point of view on the truth of God's word.

B. With regards to destroying Las Vegas for instance, who's to say he won't?

C. As for free-will, I believe that the free will he gives us is a will to either choose to follow him or not. Again, when we think of ourselves as greater than we are, especially in Heavenly realms, then I suppose I see your point of view. Again, I argue that apart from Christ, we are but a speck of dust in the grand scheme of things and headed for Hell. As cruel as it may be. It's simple really, I liken it to this,,,if you were on the 4th story of a 4story building that was on fire and the ladder of the fire truck was at your window, it would still be your choice to step out on that ladder or to stay and suffer the inevitable consequences.

 

 

So you admit then, that God sending us to Hell is "cruel."?

 

If you admit that and accept it - more power to you. I just can not respect much less worship a God that could do that.

 

I don't understand your argument about believing the Bible cover to cover? Could you explain this a little further? How is one to believe the Bible cover to cover with it's countless controdictions and use of exaggerations to make points to an uneducated people?

 

You're idea of the inferiority of the human race is a bit disturbing to me. It's great to be humble but when you degrade yourself to "a speck of sand" - it goes to show how easy it would be to buy into a religion simply to make yourself seem worth more than just your small nothingness of existence.

 

Oh, and the ladder thing was way over my head.

So you admit then, that God sending us to Hell is "cruel."?

 

If you admit that and accept it - more power to you. I just can not respect much less worship a God that could do that.

 

I don't understand your argument about believing the Bible cover to cover? Could you explain this a little further? How is one to believe the Bible cover to cover with it's countless controdictions and use of exaggerations to make points to an uneducated people?

 

You're idea of the inferiority of the human race is a bit disturbing to me. It's great to be humble but when you degrade yourself to "a speck of sand" - it goes to show how easy it would be to buy into a religion simply to make yourself seem worth more than just your small nothingness of existence.

 

Oh, and the ladder thing was way over my head.

I believe you misunderstand, as cruel as it may seem, if you end up in Hell, make no mistake, it will be you, not God, who sends you there.

 

Never said the human race is inferior. However, to be equal to God is how your posts IMO have tried to make our race seem, and it's simply not so.

 

I've enjoyed the banter, have a great new year!

So you admit then, that God sending us to Hell is "cruel."?

 

If you admit that and accept it - more power to you. I just can not respect much less worship a God that could do that.

 

I don't understand your argument about believing the Bible cover to cover? Could you explain this a little further? How is one to believe the Bible cover to cover with it's countless controdictions and use of exaggerations to make points to an uneducated people?

 

You're idea of the inferiority of the human race is a bit disturbing to me. It's great to be humble but when you degrade yourself to "a speck of sand" - it goes to show how easy it would be to buy into a religion simply to make yourself seem worth more than just your small nothingness of existence.

 

Oh, and the ladder thing was way over my head.

 

God sends NO ONE TO HELL. They choose to go or not to go.

 

This is best illustrated by the 3 crosses. Christ in the middle and two choices. One thief proclaimed Jesus as Christ and was in paradise that day with Jesus. One did not and is not. Two choices made by US.